Transcript: AMY GLENN on a Life in Thresholds /341
Ayana Young Hello and welcome to For The Wild Podcast. I'm Ayana Young. Today we're speaking with Amy Glenn.
Amy Glenn Threshold moments can happen throughout a day. Walking through the woods, and pausing and noticing deeply, can feel like a threshold. You see into something that's mysterious. There's a pause of the regular mind and the recognition of some kind of mystery at work or some kind of liminal space when birth and death meet because a walk through the forest is a walk through birth and death.
Ayana Young Amy Wright Glenn earned her MA in Religion and Education from Teachers College, Columbia University. She earned her BA from Reed College in the study of Religion. Amy taught for eleven years in the Religion and Philosophy Department at The Lawrenceville School in New Jersey earning the Dunbar Abston Jr. Chair for Teaching Excellence. She is a birth and death doula, hospital chaplain, Kripalu Yoga teacher, and founder of the Institute for the Study of Birth, Breath, and Death. From 2015 to 2020, Amy served as an active contributor to PhillyVoice writing on topics relating to birth, death, parenting, and spirituality. Amy is the author of Birth, Breath, and Death: Meditations on Motherhood, Chaplaincy, and Life as a Doula and Holding Space: On Loving, Dying, and Letting Go. Amy has trained thousands of professionals in the work of holding space for life’s transitions––and focuses specifically on grief and bereavement care. To learn more, visit: www.birthbreathanddeath.com
Well, Amy, thank you so much for being on the show today. I'm really looking forward to diving into some of these topics with you.
Amy Glenn Thank you so much for inviting me.
Ayana Young Well, I thought we'd start off with kind of a window into your world. And I would love to talk through the realities of being a doula and how you found your calling in doula work.
Amy Glenn That's such a wonderful question. As I've journeyed in life as a doula, I've realized that doulas do so much with transitions not only birth, but also transitions such as death or big change, supporting people through significant life events. And my pathway to birth doula work really connects to my sister, Rachel, who was pregnant with her first baby. And this was 18 years ago, her daughter just turned 18, and was separating from her husband. And it was a hard situation, she came to live with me and asked if I would be her birth partner. And that question brought some fear because I didn't know very much about birth at all. And I thought, oh, goodness, I'm going to need some help.
So I went to the library at my school, I checked out a bunch of books on birth. The librarian looked at me quizzically, like, are you pregnant? Because we were friends. I said, Oh, no, it's not for me, my sister. And I explained, and she said, Oh, I think you might want to consider hiring a doula, and I had never heard the word until that moment. And I said, A what, what is this? And she explained what birth doulas do. And as soon as the explanation was in the air, I thought That's what we need. So I checked out all the books, I went home to my sister, Rachel, and I said, Rachel, I just learned about doulas, and I want to get one for you this birth. And Rachel said, No, I don't think so, like I have you, I don't need a doula. And then I said, Rachel, I need the doula. So that's my story of how I started the path.
I did the doula training for birth. And then over time, became involved in death doula work, and now I help train doulas as well. So it's been such a heartfelt journey. And I really credit the librarian at my school, and my amazing sister Rachel, and of course, her amazing daughter, who's now in college, my niece, Darcy.
Ayana Young I love that your family brought you into this work. And I think it's really fascinating and in no way a surprise to people that as a culture, it seems like we have value, of course for these vital jobs that act and service to humanity, whether that's teaching or making food or tending to the dying, but they're valued much less than jobs that serve capital accumulation in the overculture. And so I wonder what cultural work is needed to recognize the value of these services to humanity and uplift them, so they're not always overshadowed by those roles that are about endless growth and consumption and so on and so forth.
Amy Glenn Oh, goodness, I mean, this goes beyond doula work, for sure. This connects to caregiving in general and with people who care for children, often teachers, you know, just the human caregiving at the end of life, the caregivers who care for parents who care for partners when they're sick, and how we self care. Because a culture that's very focused on productivity and consumerism, also views its citizens primarily as consumers, and not fully embodied multi dimensional human beings, who are not only consumers, but also who feel and create and think and cry and get hurt and need care and give care. So what you're asking is really, how do we reframe what we value as a culture? How do we reframe where we put our time? And how do we see each other in a way that's multi dimensional, and I think supportive of life's complexity instead of just what business you support when you go to the store, and what products you buy, and what you wear, and what you drive, and all that that type of thinking really limits our perspectives of each other and of ourselves.
Ayana Young Mmmhmm, yeah. In the Institute for the Study of Birth, Breath and Death, which you founded in 2015, is described as, quote, "Inspiring and nurturing organization community dedicated to furthering the development and professional skill set of those called to hold space for birthing, living and dying," end quote. So yeah, I would just love to get more into the weeds here. And I know you started touch on it in the last few responses, but how does the role of the doula serve to hold all of these spaces?
Amy Glenn It's a really great question. I think that if we go to the root of the word, the word doula means to support, to serve, and particularly to serve women in childbirth, traditionally, in the Greek culture, I think we can find a lot of meaning when we attend to people, and they are opening their bodies literally to life, new life, and sometimes to death. There is such a need for someone to be present, compassionate, courageous, confident, and clear. To hold space, which means to bring compassionate presence to what is. And what is in the moment of birth is deep work. You know, it's a deep, powerful exploration of self that happens and unfolds when we enter into labor or enter into an operating room for a cesarean delivery. My sense is that the Institute is one place, and it's one of many good places, where people who are drawn to those transformative moments and who want to serve can come and recharge and learn and dive in.
For instance, just last night, I finished teaching a course called Understanding Trauma for Birth and Death, Doulas, and they brought in mental health professionals whom I admire and respect. We used a core text by Dr. Bruce Perry, and Oprah Winfrey, called What happened You? And we divided that book into sections and did group study and discussion, all for the purpose of strengthening the work of doulas. And that involves also self care, because a great deal of that book has to do with our own trauma or our own story and how we self-care for our own nervous system. Keep it regulated, stay regulated. So you know, your question about the role of doulas and, and the Institute that is created to help support people like doulas. I think it's a great one. And I would really love to see more organizations develop, where people slow down and digest and consider and reflect and learn together in a multifaceted way, not just intellectually, because we can study the book, but we also pause to meditate, we also pause to move, we pause to breathe, we took the time to deeply listen. And those are the skills that really help information sink in. It's not just in the intellectual realm, it goes into the emotional realm and into the body as well.
Ayana Young Yes, totally agree with you there. And I'm really fascinated in the nature of your work that touches on the thresholds between life and death. And I'm wondering, how do you recognize the salience of these, quote 'threshold times' while also handling the uncertainty that comes with them?
Amy Glenn Yeah, well, that's what the saliency is, it's the uncertainty. That's why it's a threshold. It's unknown. It's mysterious. It's hard. It's a place where the normal rules don't apply. You're in a liminal space beyond the regular up, down, sideways, backwards––the general rules we use to navigate it's a place without a map in many ways. And threshold moments I think can happen throughout a day – walking through the woods and pausing and noticing, deeply noticing can feel like a threshold. You see into something that's mysterious. There's a pause of the regular mind and the recognition of some kind of mystery at work or some kind of liminal space where birth and death meet, because a walk through the forest is a walk through birth and death. There's trees being born and trees dying, animals, our own self, every moment, every breath in and out is a mini birth and death. So my hope is that we can think more clearly about thresholds, be less afraid of them, be more willing to notice when we're in one, and have support. And that's what a doula does. A doula says, “I will companion you through your wilderness. I will walk side by side. I can't walk for you and I won't tell you how to do it. I can maybe point out a few boulders that I stumbled on.” But really, it's about companioning someone else through their meaning-making, through their grief, through their birth, through their breath, through their death. And that's what we do, we companion each other. As Ram Das used to say, We really are just walking each other home.
Ayana Young That's beautiful. That's so comforting to hear, especially in an individualistic culture that isolates us and separates us to have somebody with us. And I'm also thinking about how the medical system also really isolates us from connection and care. And it seems that so many of these moments, these threshold moments have been so medicalized and, you know, I'm just thinking about how both birth and death are often in isolated hospital rooms away from family or community support. And I want to recognize that yes, medical involvement is sometimes totally needed in these situations. But there is a vital human existential need during these moments that is often ignored. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on how we navigate these medicalized systems with ourselves, with our loved ones while we know that we are in deep need of connection, as to not become more traumatized or to not miss out on these moments that are so vital to our humanity.
Amy Glenn I really like that question because it makes me think of a dialectic, you know, dialectics are when you have two ideas, they seem like they're in opposition, but when they overlap, you see the wisdom, the wise-mind space. So this comes from the work of Marsha Linehan, who is the psychologist who developed Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, DBT. And in her work, she said, acceptance seems like it's opposite to the will to change. And on one hand, they are opposite, right? They're in dialectic, but when they overlap, when you have acceptance and change, and you stand in the middle, in that wise-mind place, you can see how they both have the elements of truth. So medical models are created by people and people are multidimensional. And even if medicine needs to focus on certain elements, like how much protein is in your urine, or what's happening with your heart right now, or what's going on with liver cancer. It focuses on specifics. The person who's focusing is still a person, and the person receiving that focus is still a person. So we have on one hand a medical model that could separate, isolate, but we also have community models that connect and reinforce multidimensional realities. So when they overlap, I think we can be even in a wiser place, a wise-mind place, when we have the best medicine and the best of human heart connected.
You know, my uncle just died in Utah, in a hospital, surrounded in a palliative care unit by deeply compassionate nurses, and a deeply loving family. And now, it's not a perfect system, but it's not as if because he didn't die at home, it was somehow isolating, there was a lot of love in that hospital room with him. So there's ways we can reframe and there's ways we can begin to stand in dialectic with more curiosity, rather than try to make it an either/or situation.
Ayana Young So, yeah, maybe let's talk about or dissect that either/or situation. And we could potentially talk about what it could look like out of the medical system within the medical system, both of those scenarios, and then if we were to be in either of them, how could we be a part of setting them up for healing and connection?
Amy Glenn That's the big question, and I'm just beginning to really settle with some ideas in myself. I think this takes the best minds in every field. It's a lot of what Dr. Bruce Perry writes about in his work, that we need trauma-informed care at all levels of society, where we really think about the human self as our history, what happened to us how our brain works the way it does––this each new, unique personal history and how it connects to our family lineage and our community presence. So what would that look like?
I mean, one memory comes to mind right away. When I was a hospital chaplain at a hospital in New Jersey, and a woman who was just a few years older than me, maybe in her 50s 40s 50s was with her dad who was dying, and he was a big man, with a big barrel, chest, wide face, big hands, just a big father, just this loving big father, she loved him this so much. At one point, she just crawled into the hospital bed with him and held him and cried and held him to his dying hours. And so you think of hospitals as pretty limited in their capacity to hold space, maybe for a family. But that type of action, crying in the bed next to someone who's dying, that you love and holding them close. That's the type of thing that often people associate with dying at home. And yet, here it was happening there. And so how do we create models where we, we are either or we can say, you know, when people die in our hospital, we do our best to welcome family, community touch. We welcome you to be close as you feel comfortable. And you know, as long as the dying person feels comfortable exhibiting signs of comfort, that there's a welcoming of that kind of touch. So that's one example that comes to mind. But I do think bringing in the best thinkers of these different systems that we have, that all interrelate and really think, well, how do we take the best of these various models and have a both/and or dialectical approach? That's what I'm trying to do with the Institute with certain classes, really trying to take some real key thinkers and have them speak to doulas about their work, so that we have a trauma-informed, you know, anti racism approach to our work that also includes self-care. So I hope that answers your question, those are the thoughts that came to mind as I was listening to your thoughts.
Ayana Young Yeah, I mean, I am interested just to hear any of your thoughts on these questions and try to visualize because I think sometimes when we've been raised and conditioned, and don't have examples of what it could look like to cross these portals with our loved ones in a good way. Sometimes maybe for some of us, we can't even imagine what that would look like.
I remember the first time I had been with a past body. I was so afraid to touch the body. And my mom went up and touched the body of this being who had passed. And just seeing her touch this being was an opening for me and it was shocking. And I was so scared, so sad. And then I went up and I touched this being and I ended up being with this body for two or three days before they went into the ground. And just her opening that it was like opening and availability that I hadn't even known was possible because I had never been in that experience. So I think for so many of us, whether it's through the birth or death process, we don't have the teachings or we haven't been taught or learned through experience or otherwise––what to do with ourselves, our emotions, our bodies, how to be with the other person. Like what you said, even about feeling comfortable being touched or touching, or showing emotion, whether that's joy or laughter or grief. I mean, there's just so much that comes up in these moments. They're probably the most powerful moments of our lives. And so I just like hearing stories from you. I think it's really helpful to be able to see ourselves potentially in these situations and visualize a bit.
Amy Glenn I really resonate with that. I think the modeling of storytelling is the ancient way we used to instill, teach each other. When we go back before written language... written language developed about 6000 years ago, we have evidence human beings, as we know ourselves to be have been on this planet about 40,000 years if I'm getting that right, and before then, of course, we have all the different forms of hominids and Neanderthal and this is from one perspective, right, what we know of looking at anthropology and archaeology. So if it's true that most of our human history 34,000 years, preceded written language or the evidence of that we can find that means people told stories long ago too. Long long ago. Around fires and homes as they walk, as they hunted, as they breastfed, as they cared, as they birthed, as they died. And so it's through the storytelling in a multi-generational context where you don't have all the kids in one building and all the old people in another building. I think that divide is so sad for our culture where we have separated ourselves from the elders and the young. So that multidimensional community, multi-age generational community is full of story. And some of them are very sad, and some of them are very beautiful. And those stories do open possibility, whether they're mythic stories around religion or mystery, or their family history stories. So I really agree it's through this telling of stories that possibilities do open.
And I think about the type of rituals I've seen done around pregnancy loss, the different tattoos, the different rituals around blood, the different burial rituals, the different altars in people's homes to honor babies that have died. And if we could just have those stories, it would seem like, oh, we're not just alone in this vacuum of grief. You know, 1000s, millions of people have made stories and told stories, and made ritual to honor babies who have died. And so these stories should be known. Right? I think it helps us process. It helps us feel like we're part of the human story, that this isn't only an experience that I am suffering.
A big part of the Institute work is looking at these portals, these threshold points through the lens of companioning. How do we companion? The support network. Who's with us? Who's companioning us? Right? So how do we companion ourselves? How do we receive companioning, which is an approach to bereavement care or transition care that normalizes the emotions instead of making grief a pathology. And then the third piece is ritual. What types of ritual secular or religious do we use to honor these threshold moments? So at the Institute, we have a class called "Rituals for Menopause." And there's very few rituals for menopause in our world today, yet, it's a big transition, I'm going through it. Having a gathering of you know, 50, women online, talking about menopause, reading stories, normalizing experiences, crying, laughing, sharing, and then creating a group ritual where we might move, we might breathe, we might paint, we might light a candle, and it's open to so many faiths, because it's crafted by the group. Drawing elements from the earth, from our history, pictures of our ancestors, honoring what it's like to enter into this stage of life where periods have stopped and yet, there's so much ahead where we can nourish our community and family.
Okay, so you got me onto that topic of ritual. And that I think, is key to really reflecting on how we bring more intentionality to thresholds. So, thank you for highlighting stories, because it's hard to have a meaningful ritual without a story. Right? Why are we lighting the candle? Whose picture is that on the altar? Why are we doing this long pilgrimage? What are the stories of those who've done this ritual before? We just think of Passover, or Pesach, if you're Jewish, that ritual of that meal, the Seder, and the 1000s and 1000s of Jews or millions of Jews who celebrate that every spring, and the history of that meal. Every part of that meal, every portion of the plate has a significance to the story and Exodus. So it's an incredible ritual to study. I think we need more of those honestly, and we can make our own, we can definitely make our own personal rituals that help us with our own life story. So if you're listening to this, and you've lived through something really hard, it doesn't have to just sit in a dark corner of your mind. It can become a powerful force for insight and change. You can make a ritual to honor that you survived this, that you move through that you've gained self awareness. You can mark your body with something with this or have a place in your home or a part of your journal where you honor those edges. And that's a lot of shadow work right there. And there's courses in the Institute on Shadow Work, because if doulas do their shadow work, there'll be more effective as doulas. We can hold more space because we've digested more and more of our own story.
Ayana Young Yeah, I can absolutely see that. And I think that, of course, doulas doing their own shadow work is important, as is all of us, and show up and be better companions to each other in these moments. And maybe that's the question right now for me is, how do we non doulas, how do we show up better in these moments for the other but also for ourselves? Because I think that these moments are so transformative for everybody involved and I'd love to know how we can show up as better companions, those of us who are [unknown] leaders of the moments?
Amy Glenn Yeah, that's a great question. For me, the strengthening of those skills is a lifelong journey. I think of Thích Nhất Hạnh, the late Buddhist teacher, who would say "when you point your finger to the moon, you're pointing your finger to the moon, but you're not actually touching the moon," right? You're moving in the direction, but it's not like a perfect grasp. In the same way, you look at a menu, you read the word, pizza, you order pizza. The menu points to pizza, but it's not as if the menu is pizza. The moon isn't your finger. You're pointing to an ideal that you're pointing to companioning. And I think everyone does it imperfectly. I certainly do. And yet we can strengthen our power to honor our imperfection, and show up with more intentionality, to show up with more compassion and presence. And in that sense, we become perfectly imperfect. But I don't know anyone who holds space perfectly. But I do know many people who strive to strengthen the power to hold space for imperfection. And in that I think we can hold the messiness of our own lives with compassion. We certainly can more effectively hold the messiness of transition moments with more compassion. The threshold moments are messy, they're often challenging. Sometimes they're super insightful and clear. But usually threshold moments involve a transformation that can be mysterious like a caterpillar goes into the chrysalis and then emerges a butterfly. That chrysalis stage is really interesting. It's not quite a caterpillar, it's not quite a butterfly, everything is moving around. You need your privacy, you need the quiet, there's lots of change. And many of us go through those moments, chrysalis moments, in life and having a companion to just be present, to say "I see you. It may be messy now. I see your beauty and I know you will emerge transformed."
[Musical break]
Ayana Young Thinking about your work with the breath element moments. And I'm wondering, how do you find connection to the breath that holds us between life and death? And how do you recognize the immense value and power of this seemingly mundane act, which is breathing and of course, we do it all the time, unconsciously. But maybe you could walk us through that practice?
Amy Glenn Sure. So if you're driving, don't do this. You can be aware of breath and do not close your eyes, please, if you are in a place where you can sit and notice or lay down and notice the safety around you to close your eyes and that feels safe to do. I invite you to try that. Just close your eyes. The reason we do that is because so much of our sensory input comes through vision for those of us who do see with eyes. Sometimes we see in other ways. But once the eyes are closed, the other senses of sound, touch, taste, physical sensation, breath become more present. So right now, pay attention to the act of breathing. Breathe in, just breathe in. And breathe out. You can do that with your mouth as a bit of a wind for yourself, or simply quietly through the nose. Again, just breathe in. And breathe out.
Let's practice a simple breath technique called 4-7-8. So when you breathe in with me, I will count to four. Right and you breathe in the whole time. And then hold that breath in and I'll count to seven. And then when you exhale, see if you can let that exhale out slowly. So it goes all the way to eight and I'll count to eight. We'll do it twice. I teach this breath to my fifth and sixth graders. 4-7-8. And it helps the nervous system go back into the zone of tolerance and out of fight flight So let's try that together. So breathe in 2-3-4, hold, 2-3-4-5-6-7, and out, 2-3-4-5-6-7-8, and try it on your own.
Just settle, keeping your awareness internal for now in that chrysalis space. This is a threshold meditation itself, resting, breathing, slowing down, entering into mystery.
Just be with this. [silent pause]. When you're ready to slowly open the eyes, if you've closed them. Just notice how that feels. Your shoulders might feel your toes, you wiggle your toes. Notice your jaw muscles, your teeth, your tongue.
Maybe one more time before you sleep today, stop and pause and feel the breath. And sometimes that breath awareness is really involved. I mean, we're really aware of it when we're really involved in action. So think of running a marathon or dancing, playing music, singing, there's so much breath. And that can be a real meditation in action. So it's not as if you have to just get quiet. Sometimes deep action can help us be aware of breath too. And eventually, it's when you do your dishes or type your emails, just noticing the breath, pausing for a minute, roll the shoulders, put the phone down, hold someone's hand that you love, just take a breath together, this precious life that goes so fast. So thank you for letting me lead through a simple meditation.
Ayana Young Yeah, it was lovely. I really appreciated it. That made me feel really good. And I'm much relaxed and my thought quieter. I definitely felt my nervous system relax. It was really lovely. Thank you. I should do that every day. That's a good reminder
Amy Glenn Dr. Bruce Perry says we don't need just one hour of therapy in the week. We really need therapeutic moments there just to be short and sweet woven into our days. For many people, that community, that multi-generational community having therapeutic moments, he calls it where we have rhythm, where we have a sense of connection, where we have a sense of meaning, where we're eating healthy food and taking care of the body. That's how trauma is healed and the nervous system over time. Overall, those are these really organic therapeutic moments. I think we can craft them to you know, like right now I purposely crafted that. And yeah, it can become what's woven into our days, should we choose to do it.
Ayana Young That's such an important, simple act to remember. And I like thatm little therapeutic moments. It feels less overwhelming and doable and I think the more that we practice, the more that it becomes integrated into our day to day lives. And that feels really important.
And I want to jump into this other topic that has always felt very strange to me, which is the taboos around birth. And really the sight of birth, which is considered inappropriate, even, let's say on social media, like photos of birth will be banned, which is really interesting to me, because it's almost compared to pornography, which again, is really strange. And I think it's just absurd that we live in a society that simultaneously glamorizes and commodifies the human body, and then it censors depictions of birth itself. It's really just odd. I'm trying to get to the bottom of this. And so I'm wondering how might we heal our connections to our bodies as a culture in a way that does allow us to embrace their natural functions outside of the glamorized and unrealistic options that we're given, whether that's through pornography or honestly, just advertisements or media in general.
Amy Glenn I think two things come to mind. I think of an article I wrote years ago called "Birth is Not Porn." So this is a topic I've thought about as well, and reflect on and that same type of hyper-sexualization of the female body in particular impacts how women and those who identify as women choose to breastfeed in public, right? Just what does that mean to breastfeed a child and public, especially if the child's older, toddler two, three or four, there's a huge taboo. And yet so much of pornography grows due to, in some sense, violent taboo, and pushing the edge with depictions of rape and things that are illegal, you know, so I think it's a wild juxtaposition. I'm with you there. I don't have an answer. I can just point you to people I like who are asking these questions. And you know, Gail Dines has done a lot around pornography and reflections on it. Jackson Katz who wrote a wonderful book called "The Macho Paradox." And he has a whole chapter on what pornography has meant to men and boys growing up. I think there's a lot to explore. And again, the dialectic is what I like. So on one hand, you might have anti-body or anti-porn or anti-sex energies, on the other hand, you might have a really liberal, like let's show everything approach. And I think there's wisdom in the wise mind that can stand in the middle ground where we really think through what what helps the human self feel and know their worth, number one. And their multidimensional reality of their life so we're not only bodies, we also have minds and hearts and, and we treat each other with that. And that birth is how we come here. Right? And the people who birthed us, so much respect. So those pictures are, I think, holy, rather than censored. So I think you're asking the right questions. And you're asking a person who also asked these questions. I don't have answers. I think about this, too.
Ayana Young I just think it impacts the way we relate to birth. And even you know, on the flip side to a dying body, or a sick body or a body that has passed, our culture often teaches us that it's gross or scary. And so it's interesting, you know, birth can be pornographic and death can be gross or frightening. And I mean, in a way I can understand the fear. I think we, at large, have a fear of our own mortality. But I think it really blocks our connection to these beautiful and powerful threshold moments if we are relating them to them being inappropriate, or, you know, something that we should keep distance of. So anyways, such a big topic, and not that I have answers either, but I appreciate hearing your thoughts.
Amy Glenn Sure. Thank you. Thanks for being brave to ask it.
Ayana Young Yeah, it's on my mind, too. It's, it makes me wonder why, you know, what is it for the over culture? Where did this come from? Did it have a religious beginning? Is it puritanical? Is it for control? Like, why? Why are we set up to feel these ways? I don't know. If you've thought about the roots of this at all?
Amy Glenn Well, probably connects to any, my best guess. And this is just my best guess right now, based on what I've read. But you know, when a woman gives birth, there's no question that that child is hers. We see it emerge, we see it, but the father may question: Is it mine? Are you sure? Because there's no direct evidence unless there's some really compelling identifying feature like skin color or like physical features perhaps. So I think perhaps it has to do with patrilineal systems where power and money pass through the father and son and you really want to make sure it's your son biologically. So then it means you have to control female reproduction, and women need to be contained to their sexuality, must be contained. So that you know for sure if this is your progeny. I mean, this is just one theory. But it still begs the question, why pattern patrilineal systems have descending powers. So I'm with you, I don't know the answer. But I do think it's a good question. And I think our society benefits from having really heartfelt, honest reflection on these topics, so we can hear different views and consider each other's wisdom. I think it's so important.
[Musical break]
Ayana Young Well, I'd like to transition and talk a bit about the shadow side of caregiving. And you're teaching a course called Hungry Ghost examining the shadow side of caregiving and describing an aspect of the course you wrote, quote,"How can we bring compassionate presence to the parts of us that we have discarded, ignored or tried to self medicate through maladaptive soothing mechanisms? As we learn to hold space for our hungry ghosts, we also learned to hold space and respond appropriately to the hungry ghosts of those around us," end quote. How must caregivers be aware of what they bring to the table and interaction with those they care for? And maybe how can we create supportive spaces for caregivers that allow for better quality of care all around?
Amy Glenn Yeah, this is a really important topic for so many. I've seen a lot of people, have compassion, fatigue, or find themselves exhausted from their caregiving. And it might not be doula work, formal birth or death work. Or it could be mothering, it could be in a relationship, a partnership where you do a lot of caregiving or tending to the needs of another at the expense of one's own. And so I've spent a lot of hours reflecting on this talking with people reading about dynamics, where the shadow side of caregiving becomes really problematic. And part of that connects to codependency where we have patterns where we might want to control other people, so we feel regulated. As long as he's happy, or she's happy, then I'm happy. And so it's a lot about controlling someone else's nervous system instead of our own. And so I think caregiving has to do with boundaries. It has to do, yes with service, and yes with stretching the self.
And those of us who grew up Christian, I grew up Christian, there was such an emphasis on being Christ-like––always patient, turn the other cheek, give your coat to your neighbor, if someone condemns you seven times, you know, just forgive seven times more. So there's this real sense of like, I'm expansive, I can hold a lot of space for someone's shadow. I forgive. I am patient. And then that can set us up for relationship dynamics where we become depleted, or used and abused, and their unfulfilling relationships. And those relationships could be work or personal or even a doula relationship where a mom might be really needy. And the doula just keeps giving, giving, giving at the expense. So I think if I'm going to craft an institute, where doulas and people who are drawn to thresholds calm for personal and professional growth, it would be remiss to not have a course that deals with the shadow side of this work. And so even as a teacher, the shadow side of teaching involves over giving, overextending and not having your own boundaries. I think it's so important to have healthy boundaries. And so this course is to help strengthen all of us. And just like with holding space, I don't know anyone who does it perfectly. Just like with parenting, I don't know any perfect parent. The same way I don't know any perfect caregiver. I don't think there is such a thing. But there are people who are healthier than others in terms of their patterns. So this is a course to try to support all of us and become healthier with our patterns of caregiving for self and others and having boundaries. And and the big part of this course too is recognizing red flags when people are toxic or malignant or like super self-centered and will probably best not to be in a deep relationship with patterns like that because it will deplete and to be able to recognize it and then not engage, having respectful boundaries protecting oneself from exploitation.
Ayana Young I'm really grateful that you offer these courses and the support because we need it. We really need it. I wanted to read a quote from an article you wrote called "Holding Space for Pregnancy Loss: Three Components for Doulas to Consider" where you say, quote, "Anyone who has been touched by death knows there is no returning to a previous life. We are irrevocably changed due to the loss of loved ones, particularly the death of our children. The companioning approach to understanding and being with grief acknowledges this reality," end quote. And I often see there's this force to, quote, 'get back to normal' after grieving as if it's a box to be checked or just something to escape from. How do you think holding space for grief also means holding space for grief and sadness to change us?
Amy Glenn You know, I have tears in my eyes. I listen to you. I mean, everything changes us--the water we drink every day, the way we sleep at night, what we eat changes us. The changes are so sometimes small that we assume we're the same every moment. But if we look deeply in each moment, the moment is different. Like right now when I stop this interview, I'm changed from you. Your questions, your reflections, your wisdom, it changes me. So we're changing all the time. I believe there's a part of us that doesn't change. That's my spiritual belief. Not everyone shares that, that's fine. But my mind is always changing. My heart, my body, every cell every moment, every breath. And grief is an upheaval. It's an upheaval. Everything took flips upside down. It brings us to our knees. We feel like life's an emergency. Someone we love just died. There's moments of clarity and gratitude and grace. There's moments of confusion and anger and denial. It's an upheaval. How could it not change us if every text message we send and receive changes us? So it is grief.
So the normal is the sense that while there's equilibrium, that the change is imperceptible, I wake up every day, I'm a day older, but I don't look that different in the mirror. But if I look at myself, at 49 now, and look at pictures of myself at 19 - 30 years––I'm like, Wow, I see that change. And then 30 more years, I'll look back at 49 and think Oh, I was so young. So things change. And when we have gaps through the big change, we see it. And so grief is a big change. That changes us and sometimes it's really, really private people may not even talk about the abortion they had, may not ever be known. But it's a change. And it's a type of birth and death and loss, or they don't talk about they were sexually abused as a kid, no one may ever know. They may die and no one may never know. But it changes us, the grief. That is unexpressed, too. So to return to normal, I think when people in good faith, say I'd like to return to normal, or go back to what it was, it's just a real hunger for equilibrium. Again, it's hard to be in the threshold for a long, long time. And I think that hunger can be honored. I can say, Yeah, I get that you want to return to this innocence or return to what was. I think that part of grief is to long for the time before grief. Because it's really an upheaval.
All the people in Ukraine who are fleeing or moving around or having their neighborhoods bombed, I bet they really do long. I would long. Gosh, well before this war two years ago, before this war, before my neighbor died, or my son died, or my uncle died. So grief does change, but everything also changes, it's just a big significant change. It's like 30 years all at once, just like you see it so big. And I think there's wisdom in grief. I think there's wisdom to be found, a post traumatic wisdom, we could say. Dr. Joanne Cacciatore, one of my favorite writers of grief, a mom of five, and one of her babies died really young. And she named this little one Cheyenne. And it's been like 20 years, she still writes about Cheyenne. And she's learned so much because Cheyenne died. She's learned so much. But in one point in her book, Bearing the Unbearable, she writes, “I would give up all of that wisdom to have her back. So I think that's what grief is––honoring the wisdom we gain but the longing still for what was before.” Sometimes that means 20 years. And she's this professor on grief studies, which is arguably the other stuff to have her back.
Ayana Young Amy, thank you for sharing that. It feels so close to my heart and vulnerable and really felt connected in this conversation and I just think talking about grief is so important. And I think so many of us have been so destigmatized to grief and loss because, well for so many reasons. But you know, I think about the media and we're just literally bombarded with violence and death and we've become desensitized to it. And so it makes sense that that plays into our block from being able to hold the sacredness of death and hold space for grief, because we're desensitized in the strangest ways to loss and grief and violence and death. And it's just yeah, it's like a rabbit hole of confusion in there. And the other reflection I was sitting with, too, is from a few moments ago when you spoke about leaning on ritual and tradition and the threshold times of uncertainty, because it is uncertain how we move forward. And it's uncertain, even how we navigate the present moment with so much conditioning that has really taken us away from feeling secure as we move through life. So I just really appreciate you sitting in the complexity of these topics. And I'd love to just hear whatever's on your mind as we close.
Amy Glenn Well, think about if I had a glass of water, and I took a spoon and started spinning the water moves. It's the laws of physics, it spins, it spins, it spins, and then I pull the spoon out real quick. It's not as if the water gets still right away. It spins still, until it slows, and the slowing takes time. And it takes time until the motion settles. And even when a glass of water is quote ‘still,’ there's a lot of movement that we may not see with our physical eyes, but the molecules are shifting. H2O is forming, moving, it's not static. So I think part of what I reflect on when I heard you describe the uncertainty, the sense of the desensitized human beings, feeling unsafe, but then consuming so much imagery of violence, it's a lot to consider. It's like a spoon in the water, spin, spin, spin, maybe there's some kind of joy in the spin. But you know, we pull out the spoon, and it's gonna take a while for our nervous systems to settle again and find those quiet moments in the day when the water stills and it feels soft. So my suggestion to all who are listening is just nourish that softness. We live in a world with a lot of hard edges. And sometimes things happen in life that you wouldn't expect. It's a big hard edge, you know, someone you love dies, or there's some kind of harsh thing that happens in your story. And you think, oh my God, I didn't see that coming. So even more important in those moments is to make sure we nourish the softness and find our companions who can walk with us through the wilderness. And nourish the love. I think that really gives life meaning. I mean, grief is connected to love. And they're always connected. Actually if people died, and we didn't care if they just died. They'd just be death, wouldn't be grief. And that may be explaining why we can watch movies, we don't really care about those characters. They're just we know they're gonna die, especially with horror movies, they're all going to die. So it's kind of like playing into our fear or trying to digest our own sense of interest in seeing the shadow. It's not really a place for grief. It's a place for something else, like exploring human violence. But when we really love someone, and death happens, there's grief. And so, I would say we nourish love, we nourish softness, and we nourish our capacity to be in grief, we will become wiser. That's my sense, we will become wiser. So thank you for your time. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with me.
Ayana Young Thank you, Amy. Have a beautiful day.
Evan Tenenbaum Thanks for listening to For The Wild. The music you heard today is by Charlie Warren, Doe Paoro, and Amber Rubarth. For The Wild is created by Ayana Young, Erica Ekrem, Julia Jackson, Jackson Kroopf, and Evan Tenenbaum.