Transcript: SAMANTHA ZIPPORAH on the Womb Continuum /336
Ayana Young Hello and welcome to For The WIld Podcast. I'm Ayana Young. Today I'm speaking with Samantha Zipporah.
Samantha Zipporah Bodies are not a metaphor for the earth, but they are the earth. That has been an ancestral and cultural practice for time immemorial. And when we talk about fertility, this reverence for the fact that we have this power, rather than the fear of it.
Ayana Young Samantha Zipporah is a midwife, author and educator in service to healing and liberation. Sam's path arises from an ancient lineage of midwives, witches and wise women with expertise spanning the continuum of birth, sex and death. She's devoted to breaking the spells of oppression and reproductive and sexual health by connecting people with the innate pleasure, power and wisdom of the body. Her practice weaves scientific and soulful inquiry that integrate modern medicine and data with ancestral practices and epistemologies, Sam's most recent publications and offerings center the radical reclamation of contraception and abortion. Her online membership, the Fruit of Knowledge Learning Community features access to her heart and mind via books, courses, Q & A's curated resources, and more.
Ayana Young Oh, Samantha, this conversation has been brewing for so many years, potentially seven years. And I can't wait to just spend some deep time with you. I still remember meeting you for the first time so many years ago and attending some of your workshops. And I still remember them very viscerally and have been moved and expanded. So thank you for your work on the fringes, on the edges and bringing it and centering us in it.
Samantha Zipporah Mmmmmm. You're so welcome. Yeah, I'm delighted that our threads have been able to connect over so much time, and that we've arrived here in this moment.
Ayana Young Mmmhmmm. Me too, and the moment feels right, yeah, really excited to dive in. And, gosh, there's so much that I want to talk to you about and hard to know where to begin, as usual for me, but I think as we open, I'd like to delve deeper into a constant thread that I see running through your work and expansive and holistic understanding of consent. On your website you write quote, "Consent comes from the Latin prefix con- meaning with and the Latin verb, sentire meaning feeling. Consent is at its roots and emotional agreement and feeling of resonance, not an intellectual understanding, passive permission given or form to fill out,"end quote. Whewwww. So I guess I'll start by asking, how do we cultivate practices of consent outside of transactional relationship norms?
Samantha Zipporah Yes, yeah, this really is central. And, you know, we cannot really experience consent without embodiment, without somatic awareness, without connection to self, because that feeling state that is consent, right, it's a resonance. It's a feeling state that is shared, together, between more than one party in some situations. But I think that self consent is the first step that is necessary to be able to experience consent with another. And that that is, is an effort and is a journey, and is an odyssey for a lot of us especially with wombs in terms of being able to really truly feel what it is that we desire and resonate with, especially, you know, in the realms of our reproductive and sexual health.
Ayana Young Yeah, I'm thinking back to an interview you did on the mythic medicine podcast. And you speak really beautifully about having a sacred Yes. For decisions regarding your body, whether it's pregnancy, abortion, sex, etc. So if you could describe it, what does a sacred yes feel like?
Samantha Zipporah It's it feels for me, it feels expansive. And that really that sense of aliveness and desire that itis connected to our vital force feels expansive and flowing. In the sacred Yes. You know, it's a term that I started using, specifically with my abortion care work. And that most people, when they are ending a pregnancy are very focused on the No. You know, they they know that they do not wish to carry a pregnancy to term or have a child. But that no doesn't exist in a vacuum. It exists in relationship to a yes. And so being able to really articulate and feel, what is the sense of desire? What is the Yes? What is the expansive reality here? That's not just rooted in what we don't want, but focusing on what it is that we do.
Ayana Young Yeah. And it makes sense that these yeses have to be embodied, and that they're not intellectual or rational. I think that's really challenging. I'm thinking for myself, even somebody who is raised, as many of us were, and are in the dominant over culture narrative, where rationality and intellectualism are valued beyond all else. And so that's in a sense of what we've been conditioned and trained to listen to. But I find that when I'm in that space, it definitely, it takes me out of my body, but it's almost like I could just go in circles of 'Is it a yes? Is that a no? Is it a maybe? Why, why? Why? Why?' And I could, I could almost talk myself into both a yes and a no, just based off, like list or bullet points. And then I almost get more confused, and further away from attuning. So I get Yeah, I guess I'm wondering when we aren't attuned to our bodies. Can we even fully acknowledge or listen to a sacred yes or no? And maybe we can, and just in my experience, I find it muddled?
Samantha Zipporah Yeah. Yeah, I've, you know, this really, you know, ties back with the conversation around consent and self consent, and embodiment, and how deeply dissociated we are as a whole from our bodies, you know, particularly in our pelvic bowl, and our generative force. And I relate so much to what you're saying, and feel like, even though I've been on this path of study, and practice the entirety of my young adult and adult life, you know, I started deeply studying at age 11. But I very much began with very Cartesian sort of mechanical, intellectual, rational approach. I was like, 'Ooh, I will learn everything about the body and how it functions and how to fix it.' And the journey into really occupying and being able to take action, from my heart, from my womb, from my sex has really been a growth and a transformation that has come later. It's taken, you know, took a decade to move down from my head into my heart and another decade to really, really move down into my womb. And yeah, it's always a practice to be able to quiet the mind and to be able to feel what is the truth of your desire. And but your body will tell you really, if you learn how to listen, and it is so profound, how much wisdom is there.
Ayana Young I want to talk a bit more about these practices, whether you want to share your personal practices, or maybe some of the things you share, and so many of your courses and guides that help people listen to the cues that their bodies are giving them to indicate their wants, their needs, their desires, and positions and cycles. And yeah, so I'd love if you could help us open up our curiosity and wonder about our bodies, and what are some of the cues that we can start to listen to?
Samantha Zipporah Yeah, I think that word expansive, is really helpful, expansive and open. And that we can have a thought and sort of scan our body to see how it feels in the different energy centers, the womb, the heart, and the third eye are three basics that I often connect it to if I'm moving a little bit faster, but just sitting in a relaxed space or in a bathtub, and moving from your root to crown very slowly and seeing what sensations arrive. What imagery, what colors, being open to what comes without judgment. And it really, yeah, it really depends on what it is that the decision is right? What it is that we're trying to discern. A lot of it has to do with the power of our imagination, I think and daydreaming. And the menstrual cycle and the ovulation cycle is such a powerful divination tool. Also like paying attention to the different sensations and thoughts and beliefs that we have throughout a cycle and being able to look at it over time in relationship to our life. Yeah, a whole other science and art. Yeah.
Ayana Young Well, I want to move our conversation into some of the, I guess, I want to start talking about understanding how knowledge about the body has been understood by the state and hetero patriarchy.
Samantha Zipporah Yeah.
Ayana Young Yeah. So in Caliban and the Witch: Women, the Body and Primitive Accumulation, Sylvia Federici writes, quote, "With the marginalization of the midwife, the process began by which women lost the control they had exercised over procreation, and were reduced to a passive role in child delivery, while male doctors came to be seen as the true givers of life, as in the alchemical dreams of the Renaissance magicians. With this shift, a new medical practice also prevailed, one that in the case of a medical emergency, prioritize the life of the fetus over that of the mother," end quote. Whew, yeah. So how can we come to understand modern patriarchy is roots and see how they embed in places like the medical industry?
Samantha Zipporah I love that book, of course, is spectacular. And I want to shout out to the "Book on Fire" podcast also, which goes through that book "Caliban and the Witch" chapter by chapter and gives synthesis and commentary and is a lot more digestible than the text is for a lot of folks. Barbara Ehrenreich's work is also extremely helpful as far as references. Either there's so many layers of this, and, you know, I love the the inquiry into context and history because it's very helpful, I believe, to understand an orient where we are to be able to see the the evolution of where we have been and where this has come from. And the reality that there is a paper trail there are people's names, there are, you know, propaganda campaigns by the American Medical Association against midwives, for example. And we could go pretty far back in terms of antiquity if we wanted to, to search out the roots and the transformation from the earth fertility goddess-oriented cultures to the sky god daddy, you know, punitive gods. But I feel like just looking at the industrial revolution is even extremely helpful and the parallel between the industrialization of agriculture and the medicalization of fertility. And the reality that our bodies are not a metaphor for the earth, but they are the earth and the the process by which capitalism has severed our relationship with the sacred and the divine nature of fertility of the body of the earth, of cycles in order to exploit it for control and for profit is very parallel, not distinct. So that's one insight in terms of understanding, you know, how, how we've gotten here. It's a tremendous, tremendous question. There's like a handful of particular people that have created the mechanization, the medicalization, the industrialization, the systems that sever our relationship. Even today, looking at Monsanto and Bayer murder, and, you know, the manipulation of the fertility of the seeds and the soil. And the fact that Bayer creates a tremendous amount of the synthetic hormonal contraception on the market.
Ayana Young Wow, I didn't even put those two things together, but that is fascinating and disturbing. And yeah, I I'm obviously for you and probably listeners that probably would guess like, I'm definitely more called to an intuitive way of knowing and believing in more earth-based systems. And I also know that the medical industrial complex is riddled with, whew, so much corruption and money making so much of the core and at the same time, that there's been advances that have saved people's lives, especially when it comes to childbirth. Or maybe not especially, but also when it comes to childbirth. And so just on that topic alone, maybe let's go into fertility and childbirth, particularly, how do we hold the complexity of the destruction that the medical Industrial complex has brought, and also when we can trust certain technological interventions? And I would imagine this is different for everyone in every situation, but even if we could wrestle with it in a general sense, that would be helpful for me, and probably for some people listening?
Samantha Zipporah Yeah, well, I think they really understand that. It is an industry that we're talking about. I think that this is a one of the basic philosophy tenants that I share in teaching and client work all the time. I don't demonize the goods and services that are available through the medical industry. I think that understanding that it is an industry, not a healing modality, is extremely important. And our ability to make conscious decisions as consumers and understand that that industry is not a source of healing. Some of the goods and services that exist in that industry can help us on our path to healing at certain times for some of us, but that it is not a source of healing, and that we have many methods of healing and expansive traditions that have been supporting our fertility management for time immemorial. And I use this term 'fertility management' to describe the entire continuum of contraception, abortion, miscarriage, birth, menopause–– all of these experiences that we have having fertile bodies. And that, you know, if we're going to talk about birth, specifically, the World Health Organization, estimates that about 5% of people actually need any sort of medical intervention in the birthing process whatsoever. And so in our country, in the United States, we have probably two or 3%, if that of people giving birth without medical intervention. Right? So looking at it critically, understanding the profit driven reality of the institutions and in the same way that our food systems, right? that we've created all of this dependency on industry, the choice to be able to go to the store, and, you know, purchase some coconut milk to make a curry. I love that, you know, that's from that's from industry and from globalization. But the satisfaction of being able to grow my own food and prepare it in my home is profound. And I feel like we need to be looking similarly at our fertility management practices.
Ayana Young When you say the phrase fertility management practices, I'd love for you to describe what that means for us.
Samantha Zipporah For all of us, I mean, it depends on where we're at, in our, in our journeys, right? What are our goals? What is our sacred Yes, that we want to embody? What is our desire, I can definitely speak for myself, personally.
I'm avoiding pregnancy. I worked at Planned Parenthood and in my teens, and I feel like I was very much indoctrinated in the clinical-industrial medical complex that views fertility as a whole, as pathology, as an illness that needs to be treated for most of our lives unless we specifically want to conceive. That's a whole other story. But for myself, I observe my fertility markers, and confirm my ovulation from being able to be present in my body and feel what fluids are present. And feel the position and the texture of my cervix and keep track of my temperature, and then communicate with my partner and have their support to avoid pregnancy effectively. That's how I manage my fertility personally, but each individual right, has different goals and different values and so much nuance, and I never want to demonize all of what the medical industry offers. I think it has some very useful tools, but we need to have actual informed consent to be able to use them. And so I hesitate to go down specifically to talk about ovulation and the endocrine system, but we could. A big passion of mine is understanding that the process of ovulation in and of itself has a lot more value than simply the ability to conceive or just state a child within the ecosystem of our endocrine health and that a huge percentage of our generation is consuming products to suppress their ovulation, which is really affecting our bone density, our metabolism, our ability to absorb minerals, our mood. So many different aspects of our self are affected when we suppress ovulation. Whereas a 93% of us can detect our fertile fluids effectively when we have proper instruction within the very first cycle. And I feel like this is something that can be taught to 10 year olds, the ability to identify fertile fluids, and the reality that we're taught that we need a sperm and an egg to conceive. But in reality, we need a sperm, an egg, and fertile fluids, which are generally only present for three to six days out of an entire cycle. And I will tack on that before taking a pause, you know that people who make sperm are indeed fertile, every, single day. So for the people who are only fertile, three to six days out of the month to be taking on this tremendous burden of preventing conception is extremely problematic.
Ayana Young Keep going, keep going. Let's Let's go. And let's dive deeper. I really want to hear more about all of the things you just mentioned.
Samantha Zipporah Well, for example, we build up to 70% of our bone density between the ages of 12 and 20, as people who ovulate. And the process of ovulation creates the hormone of progesterone in which I teach as the pro-gestation hormone. And that hormone is not just for, you know fortifying the endometrial tissue in case there's conception. It's also a mood regulator. And it's essential for healthy metabolism, which includes our ability to process minerals and function on so many different levels metabolically, but bone density is one like very, very tactile, solid concept. I think we need to understand that when we're feeding young adults, ovulation suppression medications, that we're depriving them of the opportunity to properly build bones. Along with, you know, suppressing ovulation so that we don't conceive but that most people that are taking ovulation suppression medications are not necessarily been taking them for contraception, they're prescribed for irregular cycles, and all sorts of other things like acne, which are all symptoms of other issues that are deep within the system that are being masked rather than healed through these medications.
I think the concept of the body as an ecosystem is really valuable for us to understand, you know that our ovaries and our wombs don't exist in a vacuum, you can't interrupt the conversation between our ovaries and our brain, for example, which is the menstrual cycle and a healthy ovulatory consistent menstrual cycle is a conversation between our pituitary gland and our ovaries. And that when we interrupt that conversation, that it has massive impact on the ecosystem of the body as a whole, not just on reproduction.
Samantha Zipporah And then, yeah, really talking about the fluids, right? Like I practice the simple thermal method of fertility awareness for contraception, it can also be used for conception if you want to make a baby. But there are also fluids-only methods of fertility awareness for contraception or conception. And that that is the primary fertile fertility signal is our fluids. And so we're really talking about this entire industry of contraception, this entire cultural hysteria being craziness from the womb. This fear of pregnancy, that is very irrational. If we were able to actually be somatically present with our body if we were able to feel the texture of the fluids, on our vulva, and in our vaginas, that that is literally all we need to know and be able to be present with. And then end rape culture, of course, so that our partners are always respectful of our wants and needs. And that's, yeah, that's one of my fun projects that's in the works right now is actually teaching with my partner, a course called the Sermon for the Sperman, which is about encouraging our partners to make sperm to actually be fully responsible for their power in the ecosystem of our bodies
[Musical break]
Ayana Young Gosh, what's like what thread do I pull on from everything that you just offered? Did you say the Sermon for the Sperman?
Samantha Zipporah I did. [laughing]
Ayana Young Okay, so let's, let's talk about that, and also rape culture and maybe tie that into something you said near the beginning of your response... hearing the insanity, that people who produce sperm, they're not given really any of these contraceptions. But the people who produce eggs are for the entire month when they're only fertile three to six days. So I feel like that ties in to each other in some bigger way that I'd love to hash out with you.
Samantha Zipporah Yeah, well, I feel like the metaphor of the four seasons and four weeks is really helpful for educating all humans about our menstrual and fertility cycles. There's a big movement around that happening. And I just want to give credit to Taoism for having this energy anatomy and the polarities of the menstruation and the ovulation and the analogy of the the seasons of the menstrual cycle. And how incredibly useful that is for educating everyone but I want to say specifically children, and our male partners and partners who produce sperm of like, you know, we're fertile in the springtime everything's wet. In the springtime, and that's when you can plant seeds that will grow. You can't plant seeds in the fall when everything is dying, or in the middle of winter. And to be able to steward, to be able to be conscious of how we impact our environment within our ecosystems, being again, not not actually a metaphor, but just a reality of how we exist in microcosm, in relation to macrocosm and so I believe that our sexual and fertile bodies and sexual and fertile realities in our partnerships and intimate relationships ought to be a direct reflection and embodiment of the way that we are in reverence for the cycles of the earth. And the reality that it's absurd to try and create a situation with our environment in the earth, that is only to suit our needs constantly–– that's how we got into the mess that we are in, currently in so many levels, right? The obsession with stasis, being a very patriarchal, over culture problem where we're like, we want to have a controlled environment, and we want it to be the perfect temperature, to constantly be productive in the ways that are suitable to us when that is not the nature of reality, the nature of our bodies, the nature's of the earth. So another metaphor that is pretty profound in that conversation around, you know, Monsanto and Bayer. And our menstrual and ovulatory cycles is that reality that synthetic hormonal contraceptive methods of all kinds that are on the market essentially trap us in late fall, in terms of that analogy of the menstrual cycle and four weeks as four seasons, it mirrors the pre menstrual week, hormonally there. They're like creating stasis, trapping us in the premenstrual week, in a way that really mirrors mono cropping. And the way that soil depletion and desertification happens as a result of mono cropping, the same thing happens to our bodies, and our metabolisms, and it actually creates heat and dryness and inflammation and mineral depletion, in a way that really beautifully and tragically mirrors the culture of agriculture on the planet right now. And so, again, like bringing that into our intimate and sexual and fertile spheres, and understanding the level of humility, and reverence and sensitivity, that people who are enjoying, right, the delicious things that our bodies and the earth have to offer, that it is their obligation, their response ability to learn how to have a reverence for the cycle, have humility, around their role within it and be really intentional and conscious of how and when and where they plant seeds.
Ayana Young I really appreciate you being able to connect the earth body and the human body and the fields of monocropping to fertility, the industrialized fertility project, it's, yeah... I really feel that and I guess I'm coming to a question of where does the pressure of female fertility come from? Like, why are we so afraid of death, and of these fallow periods?
Samantha Zipporah Wow, I mean... power, the fear of our power, and the reality that every single human being comes from this power that we are connected to, and that we have this capacity with our consciousness and will to affect human existence, right? The creation, the fate of our creative power, is something that we actually can use our consciousness and will to embody in order to menstruate rather than gestate. And that that has always been our power. Yeah, I think that's hugely where it comes from. There's of course, like many different fractals and opinions and tangents coming from that, but I do think that at its core, it's a fear of our power.
Ayana Young Mmmmhmmm. And who's controlling people who have a legs or ovulates power? You know, it's, I think there's the power conversation is vast, and the controllers have that power. Name it patriarchy or? I don't know, maybe we'd still name it patriarchy now. Yeah, it's like, how do they hone and have that power be theirs?
Yeah, the question of power is really fascinating. And there's also this question I'm having around fertility that's not well researched in an intellectual academic way. But it's something that I've heard through conversation, and maybe more of a cultural context around fertility and maybe drops in fertility. And I'm trying to wrap my mind around it, because I think there's so many different sources that are talking about fertility globally, and what that means for the human species. And of course, I know that we are being bombarded with more toxins than ever, seemingly every day, and pollution and factory farms and agro chemical laden produce. And so I'm not surprised when I hear conversations around a dive in fertility rates. But again, it's hard for me to navigate this conversation. And so I'm wondering, in your practice, what have you been seeing?
Samantha Zipporah Yeah, we are having a really hard time as the Earth and the seasons themselves are shifting. I feel like a grandmother around a fire telling a creation myth, when I even talk about what a healthy menstrual or ovulatory cycle looks like, in the ways that these these energetics and these dynamics and you know, the reality of our biochemistry and our our bodies are we are changing and evolving. Absolutely. And our fertility rates are absolutely dropping, for sure. And there's so many things contributing to that in terms of endocrine disruptors, and again, this deep tie between the fertility of the earth and the fertility of our bodies, and the way that we're existing in connection to the planet and how much poison we are made to process currently. Yeah, our cycles and our fertility and sperm count are all in decline. Absolutely.
Ayana Young And I guess, for those people who are wanting to abstain from having children, we've been kind of discussing what that is, the practices and paths to take, but for those people who would like to bring a child into this world, but are having challenges and struggling through fertility issues, and I know this is such a tender topic that I think so much, there's so much pressure on for folks who are navigating this space. What do you say to clients or those who come to you who are looking to bring in that life and having a hard time doing that? Are there practices or cues or ways that you help prepare a body?
Samantha Zipporah Yeah, well, in fact, you know, it would be the same for anybody who is wanting to conceive or not conceive in terms of the reality of our regular ovulation and progesterone levels that are needed for conception and implantation and a healthy pregnancy are also markers of health for somebody who wants to avoid pregnancy. So the basics, the very, very basics that most people in our culture are lacking, I always say like, we start with sleeping and pooping. That is really the beginning. Are you sleeping and pooping well? And then are you drinking enough water? Are you having enough fun? There are so many different layers of it. But it really has to start with that basic, basic reality of your bio rhythms and like what business do we have wanting to bring in other human into the world that we then need to teach how to sleep and poop if we ourselves are not able to do that in a healthy way? And yeah, a lot has to do with nutrition and mineralization of the body. And there's there's a lot to be said on the psycho spiritual levels and the energetics as well. And similarly, I feel like many people see pregnancy as an achievement and it's got this very, you know, young energy of forgotten use the Taoist terminology of like they're gonna get pregnant, achieve pregnancy. But my experience and what I've witnessed really is that the ability to conceive and hold is so much more yin. And on a very, you know biochemical Western medical level conversation we're talking about, you know our sex hormones or healthy sex hormones of estrogen and progesterone and follicular stimulating hormone and things versus cortisol and adrenaline. And the fact that our bodies will always always prioritize the production of cortisol over the production of healthy sex hormones in terms of survival. So our stress levels and our psychology and the way that we relate to our environment, and our lives in the production of cortisol is a very big thing to address. Yeah, there's lots of layers there.
Ayana Young Thank you for beginning that conversation with us. I think we need many interviews together, recorded conversations to dive into each of these topics. But I do also want to talk about demystifying abortion. And I know that you have supported so many people through this and also written extensively about it. And so I'd like for you to just take this very, again, tender and robust topic and kind of walk us through what demystifying abortion means to you.
Samantha Zipporah I think first we place it on the womb continuum. And I use this term womb continuum to talk about everything that touches the womb, and our reproductive and sexual lives and to understand that the physiology of abortion, regardless of the specific tools that we might use for modern medicine or not, that it is a part of nature, and it's a part of the womb continuum. It's an ancestral practice. I also want to include contraception and abortion in saying that every species, I believe every species has some form of contraception and abortion, that there will be the beginning of a reproductive phase that is then interrupted before it comes to full fruition. And that our psychology, the human psyche, is in fact, part of nature, not separate from it. Which is I know, a big philosophical leap for some folks and maybe controversial, but yeah, contraception and abortion are natural. They're part of nature. And the physiology is very important for us to understand, in general as a whole as humanity as womb bearers, but especially folks that are working in the realms of fertility and pregnancy. And you know, I've been in the realms of midwifery and doula work, and it's been, it's been shocking and saddening, how much ignorance there is around the basic physiology of abortion and how to support it, and that it's the same physiology that is connected with most miscarriages, and that one out of five pregnancies we know will end in a miscarriage. And it's more like one out of four pregnancies are ended in abortion globally, currently. So you know, first putting it in that context of the ecosystem of nature of interspecies realities, and then ancestral and historical realities that abortion is not something that we created in the 20th century. To have a political debate about: that it has been like all fertility management and all points on the womb continuum, primarily social and spiritual and ecological, rather than medical in nature. And that similarly to the way I was speaking earlier about the medical industry offering wonderful goods and services and tools that we can choose to manage our fertility without those tools that we have been for time immemorial, and of course, plants. We've been working in synergy with plant medicine to manage our fertility throughout human history. So I'll just take a pause there and see which pieces you might want to pick up.
Ayana Young [Sigh] Gosh, I know this is such a challenging topic, especially in the United States. So it's hard to pick where to pick up because I think so many of these themes are tied together, but then get lost in maybe it's fear, belief systems, patterns, conditioning, understanding of natural cycles, allowing people to choose their own lives. So I guess I'm gonna leave it up to you to see what threads you think need a bit more polling on in this moment.
Samantha Zipporah Ah, I think moving into that understanding that the sacred yes is a potential part of the process. For many humans. That a lot of people, if not most people having abortions already have children, is also really important to understand. And that it's just as much about saying yes, to a quality of life and to things that we desire as it is about saying no. And that physiologically, we need the same education to support ourselves with healthy menstruation and miscarriage, and postpartum from childbirth, that these are basic human rights, basic skills that we all need to be having in order to understand the physiology of the womb and the way that it moves, and how to support it. I think that's a huge thing philosophically, that I love to communicate with folks is the intelligence and the capacity of the womb to release that that is actually what it is built for. It is built to release and replenish, release and replenish, and that in our lifetimes, we do so much more bleeding, than birthing of babies as a whole. And there are ways to support the release and the replenishment of the womb, no matter what the method is that you are choosing for abortion, no matter what the stage is, of a miscarriage, or childbirth, but that these are basic skills that we all need to have. And that self care actually is something that we need to let go of in order to really create true community care that it is actually the obligation of the people who are not bleeding, to carry the weight of nurturing and supporting bleeding bodies, regardless of the reason that they're bleeding. And that that has been an ancestral and cultural practice, again, for time immemorial, this reverence for the fact that we have this power, rather than the fear of it.
There's oh yeah, there's so much there's so much there. I guess, a little, you know, a bit of a political commentary around the US. And just like the mass misunderstanding around having much of anything to do with religion, and wanting to place that in a historical context. That the persecution of fertility management as a whole, whether it be contraception, or abortion has always historically had huge academic and political motivation, so much more than religious or moral. That the religiosity and the moral guise is an illusion, and that the real important thing to pay attention to is the economic implications here. And that we've seen massive persecution of fertility management and the people who hold the skills to do so outside of bureaucratic and regulatory systems.. you know, with the plague in the Middle Ages, within the Industrial Revolution, and now with COVID, and that a lot of it really does have to do with labor force economics.
Ayana Young Yeah, and almost the centralization of that power and economic growth, right? Like, if corporations want to own the, quote, cure, or own the power to heal or be the ones that everyone turns to, then they centralize the power and the money to them, and then everyone else becomes untrustworthy, and unregulated and dangerous. And so I have definitely seen that pattern through so many facets of our culture. And then of course, the misinformation through the media that we know is also bought and sold. So like yeah, it makes sense that sometimes we don't know who to turn to in those moments of need because of how we've been taught and who we've been taught to trust and how that is continually reiterated, consistently. And then the pressure of death. On top of that, you know, it's like if you don't make the right decision, if you don't trust the corporations, we've been telling you to trust, you'll die, or you'll kill your child or whatever it is. And, you know, I have a lot of compassion for all of us humans as we try to navigate listening to our bodies, setting up systems for self care, community care, collective care, when we're being told we are endangering ourselves and others by trusting the non-establishment. And then it almost becomes it don't like I find myself sometimes even second guessing or worrying that I may be irresponsible to tell other people to listen to their own bodies. Then like, Oh, no, uhhh, how do I even remedy that in myself? Because, of course, these large projects, complexes are saying that if, if you tell somebody to trust themselves, then you're putting them in danger. And then you're a part of the chain of their distress. And so it's really complicated. And I don't know if there's anything you want to say to that. I don't know if it's like a psychological issue we're dealing with, or I guess, cultural narrative belief systems.
Samantha Zipporah Yeah, it's massive I, I really do feel what you're saying. And experience it very frequently. It is, it's very challenging. When I teach, one of the metaphors that I use in introductions often is, I am going to offer you a buffet of information, it is the most wonderful ideas that I can possibly, that I have had access to, in my opinion. Here are the best ideas that I know of. And you're responsible for what you choose to consume, and integrate and how you digest it, and what you do with this and take some and leave the rest. This is for your nourishment, that I'm laying it out for you at your feet, like it's intended for your nourishment. And you take what you want, and leave the rest. And it really is. Whew. I mean, that really brings me to the edge of certain, certain levels of my own evolution in, you know, for example, when we met seven years ago, I was on my first womb sovereignty teaching tour, and I use that term whoop sovereignty all the time. And I'm seeing it all over the place now, and I didn't back then. But I am even questioning this term sovereignty in such a big way these days, and how to communicate how important it is for us to take care of each other, right? And like how to communicate the complexity between you know, the importance of being able to have agency and make autonomous decisions about our fertility, but that nobody exists in a vacuum, and that we actually really need community care, and what what is the mutual aid and the community care and the co-regulation and the reciprocity that is not transactional? That is healthy between our kin that is human and nonhuman when we talk about fertility? But the importance again, of decentralizing the power, that the external authority of the industries that are built on misogyny, and abuse, and slavery, quite literally, should not be given the power of external authority. And we should not be investing all of our faith and hope that they're going to save us that it is our responsibility to take care of not just ourselves, but to take care of one another. And to to decentralize that power. Yeah, there's so much. There's so much there.
I think there's, you know, this coming full circle back to the consent and rape, which is, you know, what culture are we cultivating the difference between power with, and power over. And that is the difference between consent culture and rape culture, is that power with versus power over. And that that also applies to the cycles of our womb, whether it's menstruation or miscarriage, or abortion or childbirth, that there is innate power and intelligence to the womb, that we can learn how to be reverent with and how to support that power, rather than try and dominate it and control it. And that that is a huge source of fear, right, both for individuals and for the culture as a whole. That we do have this pervasive, insidious fear of our blood of menstruation and abortion and childbirth, and that we're afraid of the power and that we can use our intellect and our will, and our emotional and spiritual bodies and strength to learn how to have synergy to have power with rather than power over these cycles that are innate, innately divine and connected to the earth. And that that is the source of incredible suffering is this fear? And that power over that desire, we have to have power over these cycles.
Ayana Young Gosh, yeah. And when I think about rape culture, specifically, it's so insidious, because it's everywhere, you know, the movies, TV shows, ads. And then, of course, it seeps into our everyday culture, where I wonder for both parties who are playing out these power dynamics that are associated with rape culture, it's like, am I playing these things out? Because it's just what I know, not because that's what I want. And I think back to the beginning of our conversation, the full circle pneus of it of the sacred Yes, and consent and dissociation. And I think you call it sensory gating, you know, we have been taught, maybe the majority of us, if not all of us have been conditioned, that rape culture is sexuality is like, that is what we're supposed to want. One person's supposed to want to be dominated, the other person's supposed to dominate. You know, if we want to look at just so much, so much film, and TV, the woman is saying, no, no, no. But then she's saying, yes, it's like, what are we doing? And then we find ourselves in those situations, when there's nobody around when the doors are closed, because we have seen these images, 1000s of times in our life, 1000s of times are being reiterated and re stamped in our memory. You know, and then, of course, so many of us aren't taught about embodiment, and we don't even feel ourselves in so many ways. We don't even feel the grief of the Anthropocene or the extinction crisis. So of course, how are we going to feel pleasure? Or like, what is even another option other than power in sex? You know, it's just like, if we see one way, how do we even know that there's a whole world of connecting centrally and sexually and so I, gosh, whether our culture is just, I see so many of us playing into it, unconsciously, unknowingly. And it's a huge tangle. To unravel. It's like, just a huge knot, that maybe as we wrap up, if you could just maybe just circling back, like putting us back in our bodies helping us do small things, because yeah, it's like it just so big. All of this is so huge, and I want us to walk away, I know, I want to walk away from this conversation, feeling like, okay, you know what, like, I might not be able to solve rape culture today, even in my own life, but I will be able to take small practices and cues from myself to start to like, relax into the Yes.
Samantha Zipporah MmmHmmm. One of the most important practices, I believe, is really just what is my body need to feel safe right now? And letting go of stories, the ability to actually be present, to bring your breath and your consciousness to this moment of your body and without judgment. And to feel where you have desire and connection, and that the expansion versus contraction, I think is very helpful. You know, it's like if there are thoughts, like what helps me feel expansive with this thought, What do I feel authentic desire? Do I feel energy in my body? And if you don't, then that's your practice is really just coming back to your breath. And can you bring breath and consciousness into your body and into this moment? It sounds like very mean, it's simple and cliche almost. But I feel like that really is the best. The best thing is letting go of as many stories as possible and being able to be present, and interoception that word interoception which means to be able to feel what is happening inside of your body, and that that is a practice. It's a meditative practice. And just huge shout out to Taoism. Huge fan of Taoism and Taoist practices in terms of energy anatomy and sexual energy and sexuality and the exact opposite of rape culture and the understanding of our fertile sexual vital energy being health and wellness and life force that is, can be connected to reproduction, but is essentially connected to divine creative healing energies in our bodies and wanting to have access to and cultivate that energy is important, regardless of what our intentions are for reproduction.
Ayana Young Oh Samantha, this has been so deep and moving and challenging and loving, and all the things. Thank you for your work in this. I want to say, I want to say underworld work. I don't know why that word came to me. But it's like
Samantha Zipporah Absolutely.
Ayana Young Yeah. And it's, I just appreciate your bravery and your willingness to be in this space with people and with us today. So yeah, thank you.
Samantha Zipporah Yes, you're so welcome. And thanks for having this conversation and all of the light that you're carrying into the underworld of these really hard questions.
Evan Tenenbaum Thanks for listening to For The Wild. This week's episode featured original music by our guest, Samantha Zipporah, as well as music by Jeffrey Silverstein and Yesol. For The Wild is created by Ayana Young, Erica Ekrem, Julia Jackson, Jackson Kroopf, and Evan Tenenbaum.