Transcript: LARK ELODEA on Appalachians Against Pipelines /308
Ayana Young Hello and welcome to For The Wild Podcast. I'm Ayana Young. Today we are speaking with Lark Elodea.
Lark Elodea There has always been this long history of extraction in this region, but there's just as long of a history of resistance since colonization.
Ayana Young Lark is a person of settler descent living in the beautiful mountains of Appalachia. They have been working with Appalachians Against Pipelines in the campaign resisting the 300+ mile Mountain Valley Pipeline for over 4 years, and have lived in the region for years longer. Doing this work gives them inspiration as well as heartbreak — they have seen mountainsides blasted, incredibly diverse forests bulldozed, friends and comrades jailed (and released, and jailed again). They have seen community come together in vibrant, brave, and unimagined ways, and through many small victories strung together, have yet to see the pipeline completed. Lark is one of many, many pipeline fighters and water protectors and forest defenders contributing to the fight against reckless fossil fuel infrastructure and extraction (across Appalachia, across Turtle Island, and all over the world). They add to the cumulative resistance with an earnest offering of small strengths — painting banners, writing articles, facilitating meetings, carrying heavy things to steep places, growing, cooking, and preserving food, watching workers, writing letters to jailed friends, and at times, living at blockades and otherwise interfering directly in the would-be work of pipeliners. They fall in love with this region over and over, with the steadfastness of the box turtles, the tiny vibrancy of mosses after rain, with the magical night chorus of tree frogs and flashing fireflies. They are deeply concerned about the intersecting threats of white nationalism, the prison-industrial complex, and ecological degradation in Appalachia and beyond, but are inspired to keep working towards a future that confronts all these things head on.
Well, hello, Lark, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm really looking forward to talking about this intense topic with you. Because, yeah, I feel like more people need to know what the threats are in your neck of the woods.
Lark Elodea Yes, thank you so much for having me. We're always excited to talk about the campaign against the Mountain Valley Pipeline.
Ayana Young Well, let's just jump in right there and start by talking about the fight to stop the Mountain Valley Pipeline and what it means to fight on an issue from the beginning, and through potential development.
Lark Elodea Sure, I think maybe it makes sense to start by talking a little about the pipeline. So this is a 303 mile long, 42 inch diameter fracked gas pipeline that is running through the mountains of so called West Virginia, and Virginia, there's also a proposed extension through North Carolina called the South Gate extension that is tied up in permitting right now and hopefully, will never come to fruition. And I think it's important to note that when we are talking about this 42 inch diameter pipeline that is massive, right, you can climb in this pipe line and hang out in there, it is so so huge, and when you imagine that, you can just imagine how much gas is going to be flowing through it.
There's been a lot of opposition to this pipeline since 2014, when it was proposed, and that opposition has looked really different in a lot of ways. You know, folks had community meetings, they started community groups, people talk to politicians, and they wrote letters, and they filed public comments, and they attended hearings. And I think there's so much opposition, because it's so clear that this pipeline is just a very, very bad idea. The Mountain Valley Pipeline will be responsible for the emissions of nearly 90 million metric tons of greenhouse gases a year, which is equivalent to at least 23 coal plants, or 19 million passenger vehicles. It will expand fracking in the region, and if folks don't know about the process of fracking, that is an incredibly invasive and toxic process and a form of extraction that involves drilling and pumping lots of unknown chemicals into the ground and it causes earthquakes and it poisons water and it makes people really sick. So it's not just the pipeline itself that we're talking about. We're talking about expanding this toxic industry as well.
The pipeline crosses 235 miles of forests, it impacts 23 federally endangered and threatened species, and it crosses over 1000 water bodies, including major rivers, like the Greenbrier, and the Gauly, and the Roanoke. It's also slated to cross the Jefferson National Forest and that is actually where this direct action and of the fight began just off of the Appalachian Trail and the Jefferson National Forest. And at this point, the direct action piece of the campaign is more than four years old. It began with two tree sits that were right off of the Appalachian Trail. And it's gone on longer than any of us could have ever imagined. So it's included aerial blockades, like those tree sits, and dozens of lock downs and big walk ons. And it's been really amazing and inspiring to be a part of it. There's just so much community led action happening, and we have so much community support. So it's really special.
Ayana Young Oh, gosh, I feel the momentum, and just the roller coaster of fighting large resource extraction projects. I've spent much of my formative years in these types of campaigns and direct actions with others fighting for life. And it's a lot. It's a lot, and you're really reminding me of just how much it takes from so many people over an extended period of time. And, yeah, there's so many questions I have snd so I don't know how linear I'll be in asking. But I'm really contemplating just the power dynamics behind the pipeline, and who benefits from it? And also thinking about those who are unlikely allies who may typically be in favor of such development, but are negatively impacted by this pipeline?
Lark Elodea I guess to start a little bit about the power dynamics. So I don't think there are a lot of surprises about who is benefiting from this, right. It's giant fossil fuel companies, banks, and shareholders, Equitrans Midstream is the main company driving this. There are some really huge names in the shareholder department like Con Edison, banks include JP Morgan, Chase, PNC, Wells Fargo. And I think at this point, it does seem like some of those investors are having some regrets. I will say, this pipeline is more than four years behind schedule, it was supposed to be built in 2018, or be finished in 2018 and at this point, there's actually no completion date because of some recent court rulings. And the budget has at least doubled, so it's $3 billion over budget.
I think there's sort of this imagined idea that this pipeline would be good for the community, or could be good for the community, and that it's going to provide all of these jobs and economic development. But what like with all forms of extraction, there's sort of this boom and bust cycle. And, frankly, with this pipeline, and with a lot of pipelines, most of the workers are coming from out of state anyway. And the jobs that were promised, in regards to this pipeline haven't come here.
As far as your question about unlikely allies, like I mentioned, there's so much local opposition to this pipeline, and support for the campaign against the pipeline, including people who have taken action themselves, right, like Becky Crabtree, in the first year of the Direct Action Fight, who is a retired school teacher from West Virginia locked herself into her first ever car, an old Pinto, on the path of the pipeline. And last year, three self described old folks also locked themselves to a car on an access road blocking access to pipeline work sites. And I think these stories are really inspiring, right, like one of the self described old folks scheduled that action around their dialysis appointment. And those are some really unique stories to hear coming out of a site like this. So yeah, it is interesting to see folks who aren't typically opposed to fossil fuels or fracking, coming out against this pipeline, but we are sort of continuously steering our message away from the like, not in my backyard attitude, nimbyism. And we want to clarify to folks that it's not just about not building a pipeline here. It's about not building pipelines anywhere. And I think the campaign especially because it's gone on so long. It's been a really important opportunity to have, like challenging conversations regionally and locally about other issues like the police and white supremacy or gender and sexuality. And some of our long-term blockades have been really important spaces for that. And I think folks have had really important conversations in those spaces, which has been really amazing. And I think in the end, there are some people who haven't been willing to engage in conversations and are very pro-police or anti-trans. And in the end, even though those people may be anti-pipeline, we don't consider that to be a true alliance, if that makes sense.
Ayana Young I guess I'm wondering about how pipelines are marketed in general, of course, but you know, with this one, how is it marketed to residents and voters, especially engaging with questions on, quote, energy security and manufactured scarcity?
Lark Elodea I think that's an interesting question. I think the most important thing to highlight is that those threads are basically a lie, right? These are stories that are told to us about fossil fuels, about pipelines, and specifically with a pipeline like this, they don't actually need to convince the public that it's a good idea. They will try certainly, right. But all they really need to do is convince these federal agencies and local agencies like the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, FERC, right, they need three people on FERC, to agree that the pipeline is a good idea. And it's not like the public gets to vote on this. All kinds of people have come out against it. And I think, to your note about energy security, we know despite the fact that there's sort of this story, that, “Oh, there's all the gas, and we need a way to export it, or we need a way to use it,” this pipeline is actually going to create that demand for natural gas. And like I said before, the fracking boom has not created the same job growth that it promised. I think we're really seeing the energy security narrative play out right now. Especially I know, Joe Manchin of West Virginia has really been trying to push the Mountain Valley Pipeline because of this manufactured gas shortage. I say manufactured because the fossil fuel companies don't need to be making this much money, right? The reason everyone's paying so much money at the pump is so that the fossil fuel companies can continue to make record profits. I think the reality is the landscape of natural gas has really changed since they started building this pipeline, like it's something most people understand is natural gas has not brought the prosperity that it promised. And a lot of people are saying that this could be the last big pipeline of its kind that comes through the Appalachian Basin. You know, it's looking to other pipeline companies and investors like maybe this wasn't a good idea, the Atlantic Coast Pipeline was cancelled in the summer of 2020. And I think what we're really seeing is that this is a failed project and we suspect, and know, that some investors are having regrets about it based on some of the investor calls. And I guess the last note I would make about energy security is I would hope that people are thinking about water security, just as much as energy security.
Ayana Young Yeah, it's kind of shocking how the dominant culture has imbued in us a type of amnesia or forgetfulness that water security is important, or something it's really odd. And I'd love if you could help ground us in Appalachia and unpacking the histories of racism and classism that have made areas of Appalachia a sacrifice zone. And also just thinking through your organization's rootedness in the space and the vision for the future of your home.
Lark Elodea Um, yeah, I will say the history of Appalachia was very long and complicated, you could probably do a whole podcast just on that, if not many episodes of a podcast on that. But I will try to do it justice in a short period of time. And I think when thinking about the history of Appalachia, and I am not actually from here, I wasn't born here, which feels important to say, but from what I have learned about the history is that there has always been this long history of extraction in this region. But there's just as long of a history of resistance since colonization. And it has often felt like even the Indigenous history of this land has been extracted or has been attempted to be extracted, it's very challenging to learn about Indigenous peoples who are and or here in this region. And I know that's not a unique quality about Indigenous history, but it's very extreme here, right, like the West Virginia, official state line is that no one was here, when the white settlers arrived, but we know that isn't true. We know that the Mountain Valley Pipeline goes through Monacan, Tutelo, Cherokee, and Yesan land and probably lands of other people who we don't even know about. And I think since colonization, extraction has essentially been used to re-colonize land, again, then again, through logging, through coal, through railroads, and most recently through natural gas, and fracking, and pipelines. And this has always happened from outsiders coming in. And from a few wealthy people continuing to make a lot of money off of the land and its people, like, after the Civil War industrialists and boosters who were eager to make some money from the timber and the coal in the mountains, they popularized stereotypes of Appalachians as backwards, and in need of civilizing intervention of industrial capitalism. And I think you really do see ways in which that is still present today. And yet, throughout that entire time, there have been really powerful examples of resistance to those various forms of extraction.
One of the most powerful examples I think, of happened in the mine wars in the
‘20s. You know, people were fighting to unionize when the coal companies owned everything in West Virginia and Appalachia, they own the land, they owned houses, people had to buy things that the coal company owned at the company store with company script. And people are fighting and fighting to unionize, and this is a fight that really happened across racial lines, right, like Black folks, poor white folks, recent immigrants, all organized together, and organized the Battle of Blair Mountain, which is the largest labor uprising in U.S. history and these folks stole trains, and they blew up buildings, and they took arms. And everyone really did this together and this struggle only ended when the National Guard dropped the bombs on them. And I think this is a really important example because it illustrates the ways in which the history of resistance to extraction here is multiracial, it is militant, and I think it also says a lot about the relationship that people have to the government around here. I think that is really still pervasive today. You know, folks have not forgotten that when they were in struggle, that was the government's response. And I think the way that everyone organized together was really used to crush that movement. You know, when it was time for the mines to fire folks, Black folks for the first to go and that caused racial tensions right? They coined the term hillbilly, as derogatory for poor white folks. So I think it's just important to recognize the role that that had in sort of like the ending of that movement as well.
It's important to reflect on these examples, not to compare ourselves to them or to self-aggrandize, but to just ground ourselves in the history of that struggle. And honor that in this land, and I think a lot of those negative stereotypes that I just talked about, that are from hundreds of years ago are still really persistent today, right? I think Appalachians are often depicted as unworthy of sympathy or of ally ship, and struggles here have really been ignored by a lot of the rest of the country, partially because of this depiction of folks from Appalachia. But I will say, despite that, my experience is that people really do have a, like, different relationship to land here that is very unique and special.
Ayana Young Wow, well, yeah, I'm also thinking about the ways that protest is dictated by state power and in wondering, how do we circumvent this, and protest in new and innovative ways that may be more impactful?
Lark Elodea Maybe this would be a good moment to define direct action. So for me, direct action means that instead of going through some created channels, like writing your Senator, or signing a petition, or maybe even going to a March, you just do the thing that you would protest. So you stop the thing that you want to stop like a pipeline, or you do the thing you're trying to do, like, give away free food to address hunger. And I think it's a powerful tool. It's been used for centuries, it really creates a flashpoint about around an issue. And it's a not necessarily an appeal to power, but it has a way to stand up to power be really powerful. And I think you're right, though the state is constantly using intimidation tactics to discourage protests. And we've experienced that often in the campaign, people have had some really extreme charges, including threats of terrorism, felonies, simply for locking themselves to a piece of equipment, which is generally the flavor of direct action that the campaign is engaging in, right, it’s tree sits, aerial blockades, lock downs, walk-ons to disrupt work for a site. And I think folks have also been jailed for months at a time and it really shows the way MVP and the state are working hand in hand, right? We see the state and the courts continuously come down on the side of the Pipeline and the Forest Service was actually reimbursed by the Mountain Valley Pipeline after there were blockades in the National Forest in 2018. And I think, trying to circumvent that and be creative. I think that's really great, but I think the most important thing is to not let that kind of intimidation scare us into being less disruptive. And there are definitely forms of protests that are changing, right, like social media storms or actions that are quickly coordinated across the continent, but in this campaign people are using, to great success, tactics that have been used for decades and we are mainly just relying on the basic concept of putting your body on the line and in the way of something to stop it and I think one of the most important things as we engage in that that tactic is to just have power in numbers, because the more of us there are the safer we are.
Ayana Young Yeah, I'm with you there. Oh, it's really good to be reminded and revitalized, to be engaged, truly engaged with these struggles and our local communities, I think it's really easy to just get wrapped up in so much that we can't really support or be helpful with. I maybe this is just a design of the dominant culture to make us feel disempowered, or scared to really show up in this way. And believe that we can fight these big fights, but it's yeah, it's just giving me a lot of, it's giving me like a confidence boost, again, and there's definitely fights that I'm seeing coming up all over the place, but especially where I'm at with mining operations and old growth, logging, and things of that nature that are going to need bodies and hearts and minds. So this is good for me right now. I'm wondering what moral values the state is claiming when declaring certain forms of protest to be “criminal” and thinking through some of their more creative tactics, like blocking roads with painted cars and dressing up in costumes?
Lark Elodea Yeah, I guess I think it's tricky to throw around the word morality in a situation like this. I'm not sure it's really about the state claiming moral values at all. I think the state is doing what it has always done, which is protecting industry and extraction and throughout the campaign, sort of, as I've mentioned, we've seen the way that these institutions of government and corporations are inextricably tied, and really any protest, that disrupts that relationship or that profit from industry is perceived as a threat and it must be crushed. And criminalization is one way to do that and that's something the state has used for centuries, right? And that goes for any disruption of the status quo. It's not just pipelines and extraction and fossil fuels, I would say, that applies to people trying to disrupt institutional racism and borders and colonialism. And we know that the hammer will come down especially hard on people of color Black, Brown, and Indigenous folks. And yeah, I don't think the cops really get to claim any morality when they're wielding that with armed men and cages. And I guess I think this is also a good time to note that, though people are risking arrest and putting their bodies on the line and sort of intentionally taking a risk that might lead to jail time, I don't think that the people who are arrested on this campaign, doing the sorts of actions are better or moral or more deserving of support than other people who are arrested and jailed. We talk a lot about the relationships between prisons and pipelines in this campaign and the whole concept of who is a criminal is entirely constructed. Right? And nobody deserves to be in a cage. So I don't know if that answers your question, exactly.
Ayana Young Well, yeah, the questions are really just jumping off points. And I'm interested in wherever you take us, and it would be interesting to hear more about the prison industrial complex in Appalachia, specifically.
Lark Elodea Yeah, sure, I think that a lot of issues that you see in Appalachia today are related to fossil fuels and sort of the legacy of an extractive economy. And we see this in a lot of ways and prisons are definitely one of them. But you know, also public health, right, the opioid crisis, like folks had their bodies broken in the mines, and that's how they became addicted to pills. And that's why Appalachia is one of the epicenters of the opioid epidemic. But I think prisons definitely fit into that, right, I think there is at least the hope, if not an actual prison boom, the hope of a prison boom in Appalachia as a new industry in the wake of some of the dying fossil fuel industries like coal. And I think, as folks on our end, who do occasionally intentionally risk arrest, and we know that this is a huge privilege, and the way that we approach the prison industrial complex in Appalachia is really important, right? We have to do that with intention as folks that may go to jail and know they're going to jail. It's our obligation to uplift struggles of those who are on the inside, right, there were tree sits in southwest Virginia, that existed for two and a half years, they were called the Yellow Finch Tree Sits and the folks that were ultimately extracted from those tree sits did months in jail, and they really did like make an effort to make relationships with folks and support folks who are inside.
And that is not a unique situation, other people who have done certainly less time, but a little bit of time have also made relationships in jail. And I think it's really clear the way the struggles for prison abolition and for a world with no pipelines are interconnected, right. In part, the prison system is used as a means to punish people taking action, but I think there are so many other examples, two folks who were arrested in the fall, recently did a night in jail, in a jail called Southern Regional Jail, in West Virginia and a week later, after they spent a night in jail there, a story was released about how prisoners in that jail are being denied clean drinking water, and the guards won't give them water and they're having to drink out of the toilet. And I think it's so basic to see these two things, everyone deserves clean water and no one should be locked in a cage. And I think the question comes up, “Well, what do these things even have to do with each other?” And a story like that, for me, just makes it so blatantly clear. And we know that prisons themselves are environmental hazards for the people who live in them, right? There are prisons that are built on mountaintop removal sites, here in Appalachia, in Cleveland, Ohio, right now, folks are fighting a proposed prison on a toxic waste site. And I think when I think about my vision for the world, it's much easier to look at it from a perspective of prison abolition, right, like a world without prisons, for me is safe and sustainable for everyone and obviously, for me, that world doesn't have fossil fuel pipelines in it.
Ayana Young Yeah. I'm thinking about your slogan, no borders, no prisons, no pipelines on stolen land and I'm wondering specifically how pipelines serve as tools of the settler colonial state. And I'm just considering to the interconnected nature of many of these issues. What might it look like if we realize that colonization, capitalism and climate change affect all of us in violent ways? Even if it's on varying timelines?
Lark Elodea Yeah, I think that is really important to highlight, right that we're like, not only fighting for a world with no pipelines, but also no borders, or prisons or colonialism, or capitalism or white supremacy or patriarchy, and the list goes on and we really do see all these things as interconnected and ultimately what we're fighting for is land back, right? Return land to Indigenous people. I think the way this pipeline serves the settler colonial state, the ways are immeasurable, right, like pipelines, use the tactic of state land theft for money-making corporate extraction, and that's the hallmark tactic of the settler colonial state. That is settler colonialism. As I've mentioned, I think this area has sort of been colonized again and again, and it's always the same small group of banker class people who are making millions and billions of dollars from each of those passes of colonization, right, like from original colonization as erasure, or attempted erasure of Indigenous peoples, from coal, from logging, from fracking, and I think we often say, no pipelines on stolen land and it is true that a lot of land for the Mountain Valley Pipeline has been taken from property owners through eminent domain. But that is not who we're talking about when we say no pipelines on stolen land, right, like for not fighting this fight in a bubble, we're talking about the people that this land was originally stolen from, and yeah, I think there are some really specific ways that this pipeline serves colonialism right. At one point MVP, proposed bulldozing sacred sites, the South Gate extension, which again, has recently been denied some important permits, which was really exciting, so I’m unsure if that will move forward. But it's slated to go through Lumbee territory and some of the resistance to South Gate is Indigenous led through really powerful organizers like Crystal Cavalier. So yeah, we're constantly trying to uplift other struggles, but especially Indigenous struggles, like the folks up at Unist'ot'en, who are resisting the Coastal Aaslink Pipeline, we worked to do a lot of support for Line Three, when that was happening, and have supported other struggles as well.
Ayana Young I have a follow-up question connecting this idea of extraction to constructed views of masculinity and I’m wondering, what do you think drives people to promote and search for meaning through violent extraction?
Lark Elodea I think that, oh, there is a lot of scholarship around questions like that, I think if that's something folks really want to take a deep dive into maybe reading some bell hooks is a good option. But I think briefly, extraction and particularly mining, in the case of Appalachia, has really been framed as heroism, you know, providing energy for America. And whether or not that is true remains a question. I think, you know, like this pipeline itself. As I've already mentioned, we don't need this gas, the pipeline will actually create the demand, and it is almost certain that some of this gas will be exported. So I think, really, you know, like, what are masculinity and patriarchy if not a desire to conquer and dominate for profit. And that is exactly what this pipeline is.
Ayana Young So, as we were talking before we started the official interview, the pipeline is kind of in a questionable state in terms of its building and I would like if you could just walk us through a timeline a bit more and where you're at now where it could go, how fast could it start moving? And, yeah, anything else that we should know about the just logistics of the potential building?
Lark Elodea Sure. So, um, the pipeline lost a few important permits this winter and one of those permits was the ability to construct in the National Forest and I think it's important to note that in 2018, when the direct action campaign started, they were coming for the National Forest first because they knew it was an area that was really beloved, and that people we're going to try to save, I think I'm sure there are other reasons, but area a series of aerial blockades, including the two tree sits that I've mentioned, but also a blockade called a Monopod, which is really like a single pole in the ground with somebody living on top of it rather than a tree sit, and then later, a Skypod, which is another form of aerial blockade, that series of blockheads stopped construction in the National Forest for 95 days and then later that year, the Court of Appeals revoked MVPs permit to be able to construct in the National Forest.
Now, they've now done that for a second time. So they're doing very badly at holding on to their permits, but I think that's an important detail to highlight, because it shows that if it weren't for that direct action, pipe may have already been laid up there. So that is at least where we're at and that's not a very long stretch through the National Forest over Peters Mountain, but it was a really important stretch both ecologically and to the community.
Another important legal decision that came out was the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals invalidated MVPs biological opinion that was issued by the US Fish and Wildlife Service and the Biological Opinion impacts a lot of other permits. So they're going to struggle to get their water crossing permits, basically, without that, they're able to cross some bodies of water, but not all of them. And they do have 500 plus bodies of water to cross still, I believe. So at this point, they are legally able to construct in some parts of the pipeline, but they can't just do it as a whole, because it's sort of like fragmented, are all these places where they can't construct at this point. And I think dozens of groups have called on FERC, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission to issue an official stop work order, which would mean that they couldn't construct at all, and FERC still hasn't done that. So technically, my understanding is that they could still build a pipeline in a few spots, whether they would do that this year is unclear. They haven't started construction yet. But legally, I believe they still could. So it's sort of an interesting moment for the campaign where it's really up in the air, but they still say that they are going to build this pipeline. And BP says they're going to finish it. So on our end, we have to believe them. And we have to be ready. And I think if folks are interested in joining this campaign, they should certainly look us up at Appalachians Against Pipelines and get in touch over Facebook or Instagram. And, yeah, I believe there will come a time where we're gonna need to be out there fighting with pipeline, and we still are in so many ways, but I believe the direct action piece will become more necessary, perhaps soon, perhaps in months, we just don't know.
Ayana Young I guess one thing I'm wondering is, of course, the best outcome is that the pipeline doesn't get built. But how could that happen beyond just direct action? Or maybe you could walk us through a few different possibilities with direct action, without, and how it could get stopped from this point forward?
Lark Elodea Sure, um, I think there is sort of two sides to the coin. I've heard some people say they don't have enough permits, it's taking them too long, they’re twice over budget, billions of dollars over budget, and they're more than four years behind schedule, there's no way they'll be able to financially survive. And then on the other side of that coin, I've heard, but most of the pipe is already in the ground. They can't not finish at this point. I see both of those. I think it does seem like MVP as a company is really struggling. You know, some investors have kept their investments. And I think it is possible that it will reach a moment where it will no longer be financially viable to build this pipeline and I think delay through direct action could be an important one, FERC could also stop this pipeline. I believe Joe Biden could also stop this pipeline, I think those seem less likely to me than MVP sort of like floundering in their own incompetence and economic turmoil just because it has taken high courts to order the pipeline to be stopped, or pieces of the pipeline to be stopped for that to happen, and even that has come far too late most of the time, but I suppose those are a few scenarios, that could happen. But I do think they will struggle without this national forest permit. And without this water permit, I've heard a completion date of 2024 thrown out there. But that's not from MVP themselves at this point. They're just not even releasing a completion date. But all I know is that once they start working on this pipeline, we will also be back out there stopping them.
Ayana Young Thank goodness. Yeah, I really appreciate you and all those who are showing up time and time again. And I think that it's so important for us to feel inspired to show up in the ways that you and your comrades have. And I guess I'm wondering, what do you think stops people from getting more involved in these struggles? Whether it's for direct action or otherwise, community organizing, that you know, have nothing to do with a type of direct action that could result in arrest or things like that? What do you think the psychological block is for folks?
Lark Elodea That's an interesting question. I think there are a lot of really reasonable reasons I can think of, you know, these projects, like this pipeline is just so massive, and it feels so impossible to stop it. You know, like, in 2018, I was sure that this pipeline would be built by the end of the year. And I think, that it is really a scary time. There's a lot of doom on the horizon, it feels like, you know, like, climate change is looming, and we're already feeling some really serious impacts. You know, there's a lot of other really intense threats, the rise of white nationalism, the continuous rise of the prison industrial complex, and I think it does seem really scary and really impossible and really like, what is the point of fighting these struggles, when the folks and institutions that you're fighting have so much power, and so much money, and really like an, you know, a huge military also. But I also think that is one of the reasons that I love talking about the campaign because it's been really successful, right, like I said, I was sure this pipeline would be built in the end of 2018. Because normally, they really just do build these pipelines so quickly. And now it's been more than four years, and it really seems like a question to me of whether it will ever be built. So I think I totally understand hesitation. But it is all the more important for more folks to get out there and be involved in these struggles and fights because like we've already said right power in versus the more people there are, the easier it is to win. Not that it'll be easy at all. But the safer we all are, as well.
Ayana Young Yeah. I'm wanting to imagine a world without pipelines with you, and what might energy in relation to land look like without them?
Lark Elodea Yeah, I think, you know, we've already said it. It's not just a world without pipelines, right? It's a world without all of those things like borders and prisons, colonialism and capitalism, and racism and sexism and homophobia and transphobia. And, again, just want to highlight land back, return land to Indigenous people. And as a settler, like what the world looks like after that is not really up to me. You know? I guess I think it's good and important to have a vision for a better world. And I don't think this is what you're doing with this question, but I think often this question is sort of used as a like, gotcha question, right? Like, well, if you hate pipelines, what's the alternative? And I think that is a question right? Back to what we just talked about, that stumps people and they're like, “Well, I don't really know, I don't have a better alternative.” And it is okay, and right, to stand up and say something is wrong, even if you don't have a perfect solution, or vision for the problem, right? Like, we can't let that question bully us into doing nothing, even if we don't have a perfect answer to solving this. And I just feel like, there is so much Indigenous knowledge and there are so many innovators who have smart and sustainable and equitable technologies, waiting for a chance to do good and fix what's wrong, but none of those have $7 billion, and a police force and a prison system backing them up. And this little piece of work that we're trying to do is fight back against this horribly destructive, bad thing, to be able to give a chance to those people who have that knowledge and those good ideas. And I think there really is no perfect solution when it comes to energy, right? All forms of renewable energy are flawed. And certainly, the answer isn't for Exxon to build solar panels, and yeah, we just can't ever have a short answer to this question. You can't just build a better pipeline or reroute because it's not about a better route, any technology change or sustainable technology that's happening within this context of colonial capitalism is also going to be violent and bad. And that's why we're always saying no pipelines, but also like none of these other things at the same time.
Ayana Young Yeah, thank you for speaking to that particular comment around well, you know, if you don't want pipelines, how are we going to heat our house? Or how are we going to live our lives and I think that blocks our creativity, and our imagination for a different world. And we're not going to be able to change everything at once. But I think stopping new extraction projects is necessary. And I don't want us to get stifled by the these types of blocks because yeah, we can't figure it all. We can't figure it all out at once. So yeah, I appreciate you speaking to that. Well, Lark, thank you so much for your time and I just want to ask if there's anything else you may want to share with us.
Lark Elodea I would just encourage folks to get involved with struggles happening in their own communities locally, but also definitely check us out Appalachians Against Pipelines. Like I said, I think there will come a time where we're calling for folks to come be a part of the campaign and I hope to see folks here in the mountains
Francesca Glaspell Thank you for listening to For The Wild Podcast. The music featured in this episode was by 40 Million Feet, Alexandra Blakely, Camillia Jade, and Cold Mountain Child. For The Wild is created by Ayana Young, Ali Constantine, Erica Ekrem, Francesca Glaspell, and Julia Jackson. To support For The Wild, find us on Patreon at Patreon.com/ForTheWild.