Transcript: JOSUÉ RIVAS on Throwing a Glitch in the Social Media Matrix /320
Ayana Young Hello and welcome to For The Wild Podcast, I am Ayana Young. Today we are speaking with Josué Rivas.
Josué Rivas Like when we talk about the creator, or the creation, or creatives, what I think, you know, a lot of people use that in social media, right? Like “I'm a content creator,” I think that it comes back to like, are we really understanding what the world needs, like if you are a creator, or the creator is inside of you, or the creation, or at least you know, energies inside of you, then you would not want to give that away so easily.
Ayana Young Josué Rivas (Mexika and Otomí) is an Indigenous Futurist, creative director, visual storyteller and educator working at the intersection of art, technology, journalism, and decolonization. His work aims to challenge the mainstream narrative about Indigenous peoples, co-create with the community, and serve as a vehicle for collective healing. He is a 2020 Catchlight Leadership Fellow, Magnum Foundation Photography and Social Justice Fellow, founder of INDÍGENA, co-founder of Indigenous Photograph and Curator at Indigenous TikTok.
Oh, Josué, this is so lovely and warming to be talking to you after so many years, I still remember the times we shared together at Standing Rock and beyond. And yeah, it's really been wonderful to watch you and your work soar through the world. So thanks for being with us.
Josué Rivas Thank you for having me. Yeah, it's great to reconnect and share story and, you know, just be present. So thank you.
Ayana Young Yeah, being present is the best gift. So I'm with you there. Gosh, there's so much to ask you, I really, really appreciated following your work and both your photography and your words over the years. And I want to open by thinking about the practice of art of photography as a distantly creative act. And I just want to hear more about your relationship to the form and perhaps think through some of the words you use when describing your photography practice.
Josué Rivas Yes, definitely, I think we're in a very important time to tell stories, especially the stories that are our own. So when I look at, you know, photography, and visual storytelling, as a medium, as a tool, almost like a tool for channeling, right. It's like how do we tell stories and share stories that are going to live beyond us and things that are going to be hopefully, not only remember, but listen to, I think that’s so much of the process of making images is knowing that your perspective and that you know, the angle that you that you photograph, or that you make or that you show up to a movement, that that's going to be complex, and it's also going to be meaningful beyond yourself. And I think that the camera and photography, and now as we're looking into like social media and different forms of storytelling, like TikTok like, how do we maintain an intention, and then also an understanding and awareness of what the image does, to our consciousness and to, most importantly, to our subconscious, I think, and how does that perpetuate trauma or in ourselves, how does that perpetuate, you know, harm, but also how can we also use the same thing that is use often against us, which is the image in order to heal ourselves, or transform ourselves, or transcend into a place of peace and rest. I think that the image is a powerful medium at this time in, you know, in our history. I don't know if I answered the question, but that's what I was feeling.
Ayana Young It's a good opener. I'm thinking back to a conversation with Atmos Magazine. And you're saying to them “Through that process, I learned that what we've been told about photography and the image-making process is deeply colonizing, it involves a language of capturing or shooting or taking, and refers to people as subjects. It's the same colonial language people use to describe their treatment of Indigenous peoples and other folks from around the world. What I've tried to do is shed that energy.” What a conversation. So I'm just like, wow, I just want to, like sit with that with you and explore the language of photography and how that manifests in the way that this medium has been used for, you know, decades.
Josué Rivas You know, through Standing Rock, during that time it was a pivotal moment for my own practice, right, like my own awareness of, how am I using this tool? How am I using this? I mean, it really is, I think, a necessity for humans to tell a story. I really think that we are constantly digesting the stories that are taught to us, but we hardly ever look within to like, share our story. I remember Standing Rock, you know, after Stranding Rock and, you know, going through this journey of like, understanding coherently what I wanted to do with this, I had to go back to like, my childhood, and I had to go back to my father being a photographer, who, you know, was also an alcoholic., I was battling this, you know, the camera in my own life, had an abusive tone to it. Like when I thought about cameras, or I thought about how people were making images or, you know, taking, I was like, yeah, the camera is related to my own father, but also like, universally, it's, it's that relationship with the patriarchy, you know? You know, you look at all the Pulitzer Prize winners for the last like, 40 years, the majority are not women, or People of Color, or you know, folks that are in the LGBTQ+, it's primarily been told from this place of like, a more, you know, standard paradigm, let's call it that for now. But I think that for me, it was like, we have to transform that, like, we have to transform, not only the language but the way that we use these images.
So for me, I had to forgive my father, you know, and be like, “Hey, I forgive you for you know, for being the father that you were but also I’m thanking you for giving me the gift of photography.” And after Standing Rock, I went through that journey of me being a father, seeing the images that we were making at Standing Rock like I knew that those images were going to exist for a long time, but how does that relate to my son? How does that relate to my family? My community? I had to go through this moment of transformation that I think, allowed me to look inward, and realize that we've been using the camera as a tool for extraction and through the journey of creating the spaces for Indigenous people to tell their own story, which is a project that we did in 2017, I was able to realize that I had to like dig into my own story and in that journey, I found the language, right? Like, thinking about how, when I'm making something photography wise, I feel like I'm making something with something bigger than myself.
Like, it's not about Josué, or it's not about like, our creative team, it’s like how do we center something bigger than ourselves in the process of making and in that process you realized you don’t want to extract from people, that maybe they're not your subjects, maybe their sovereign beings that deserve the same treatment that, for example, a celebrity would get. You start realizing all these things, “Hold on, we have standards for the way we treat people with a camera differently.” And they all come back to extraction and also this relationship with their father, and I know that sounds weird, but it's like, it's really, it's true. Like, the camera has been in a patriarchal paradigm and we need to return to a matriarchal paradigm that it's like co-created, you know what I mean? Does that make sense?
Ayana Young Yeah. I’m thinking about the program you did with Indigenous Storytellers, creating distinctly Indigenous photographs, and how there was an interview you did with Dazed Digital, and you're saying “When you work with Indigenous people, you have a different set of rules as a journalist, because historically, a lot of these communities have been documented and portrayed in a certain way. Everything from National Geographic to the pipeline opposition.” So I'd love to hear you talk about what your protocols are and even what the editing process is for you when you shift between different, you know, modes of location and what you're there to do.
Josué Rivas Yeah, that quote is interesting, because it's this really deep understanding that I'm constantly a guest in the places that I am at, where I'm located, to make something, that I'm a guest there not only if it's a territorial thing, in all different territories for different communities, but the way you say yes to telling the story for someone else, or with someone else, that the portal for co-creation and collaboration opens up and in that portal, like things will manifest differently, then what maybe you're used to, or maybe what other people are used to, and that intention of co-creating, it's really important in my creative practice, and in the way that we do things, here at INDÍGENA. Because if we know who we're making for, we have to ask ourselves a question like, you know, who are you making this for? And why are you making this? And a lot of times, when we’re asked to tell the story to to co-create with the community, you know, sometimes that’s when certain things don’t lock in and that’s when we have to push almost, like education people sometimes and be like “Hey, we can’t use that person's story and just share it widely without reciprocating with a community or with those people.” And a lot of the time, what we find ourselves is making new paths of how do we reciprocate? How do we co-create? How do we make sure that we do this in every community that we go to, or in every story, because having protocols are only useful, if you actually use them, you put them to practice, and they're constantly evolving too. You know, we just did a project with the City of Portland here, where we wheatpasted the faces of Indigenous folks that we co-created with all around the city, and there were some people that were like, “Hey, like, when we put up my photo, can I be there? And can I put it up myself?” And we're like, “Yes, of course, like, that's great!” And then there was a learning, so it’s almost like you're constantly learning that certain communities want things a certain way in that you have to be flexible with the ways that you make, and then also it actually informs the way that we're making in the future, which I think is collaboration.
I really believe that very soon, we're gonna realize that, for example, TikTok or Instagram, or all these different tech companies that are constantly using our own image, like literally, that's our energy. They're using it without us being able to have that conversation with ourselves, like, why am I doing this? Every time that I post something on Instagram, I literally go through those questions, and then I have a very clear intention. And then, and then I let it go, because I know that it's out of my control. But I think that having that awareness, it's another thing that, you know, when it comes to our protocols, it's important to, to have is, knowing that we can still make things that are, you know, that are hard to swallow sometimes, you know, or like, you know, partnering up with a brand like, “Hey, how do you do that? And can you still do it in a way that fits our protocols?” And a lot of the time to be honest, it doesn't like it, it's not in the DNA of commerce and capitalism to reciprocate with community. You know, it's like, it's quite the opposite. So sometimes we have to step away from from projects or, or say, “Hey, thank you so much for thinking of us. But you know, if we cannot meet these basic standards, we won't be able to co-create with you. So some, those are some of the protocols.”
Ayana Young Yeah, it's interesting. Gosh, there's so many pieces to this, but thinking about social media when you brought that up, and there's a few things to explore here. But one, what you're saying, or I think what you're saying about these tech, multi billion dollar tech companies, taking our energy, taking our creations, and I guess away owning them even because once we put those images on their apps or websites, we kind of give away our power to them, and they can be used against us. They can be used to sell us things, to find out information, you know, all sorts of stuff. And I think it's not always an everyday process for us to think through what we're really doing when we're posting images. But it's also challenging because of course, that's kind of become the modus operandi of connection, especially when you don't live near family or friends or when you're trying to build up your brand as a creative, because you want to support yourself with something that you're passionate about, you know, so it’s like really complicated. I'd love to hear how you wrestle with that, or what are some of the challenges that you face when you're wanting to use these platforms for yourself, for good, but knowing that there's kind of sinister underpinnings?
Josué Rivas I think it comes down to the energy that is spent on having a social media presence or having an internet based presence for, you know, for our business or for even people that are trying to make ends meet. Like, there's people that that is their job. Like, I meet people who they're like, “Oh, yeah, my whole job is on TikTok.” And I'm like, like, Is that Is that real? Oh, yeah, it is, like, literally, their whole day schedule is around building this business, in this character, that is on Tik Tok, that is like sharing, you know, different different things, right? I think it comes back to this idea of the Creator, and I can speak on this on this on your podcast, because I think the audience can understand this a little more, but when we talk about the Creator, or the creation, or creatives, what I think, you know, a lot of people use that in social media, right? Like, I'm a content creator, I think that it comes back to like, are we really understanding what the word means, like, if you are a creator, or that creator is inside of you, or that creation, or creative energies inside of you, then you wouldn't give that away so easily. Like, if we really understood that whatever energy is coming through us in order to be alive and be coherent, and you know, have a personality and all these different traits that, like, make up this reality? Like, if that is inside of us, then why are we giving it away so quickly? And where are we giving it away in a way that is basically being sold back to us?
There's that extreme of how I see that and there's also, like, for example, Indigenous TikTok, which is this page that I've been curating for like, a year and a half, like, during the pandemic, I just started, like asking other people, if I can share their TikToks, and then we curated this TikTok, and you look at that, and I learned so much about how people operate on social media based on this page, because what you realize very quickly is that a post, especially now with reels right, like a post will do so well if there's conflict, like the engagement will go up so much more if there's conflict. And it has to come from someone, especially a lot of times it’s someone making a racist comment, and from there everyone starts fighting - I picture it like all these people are fighting in this circle in the middle of town, and it’s getting bigger because there’s a group of people, and then you look at the other type of, you know, stuff that is put up, and we looked at that through Indigenous TikTok, you know things that are centered on peace, are more peaceful, it’s not about right or wrong, or shaming others – like a lot of times when people talk about cultures, but usually TikTok and Reels wants you to create conflict right away in your post, and it’s in their guidelines, like “If you want more engagement, these are the tricks,” you know, and so like, what we learn is that if there's positive messages, or there's, you know, there's no conflict involved in that, the post won't do as well.
So for me, what I realized then is knowing that these things are not going to be there forever. Like, it doesn't matter how many followers you have, it doesn't matter how much money you make from posting TikToks and Reels, it comes down to the fact that that is another channel, just like the camera, right? It's another channel and it's been used for extraction, the bottom line is not going to put us into the future that we can co-create together for us to be able to belong on Earth in a good way. So when these things are gone, where does the conflict go? You know, when a post is like 1000 comments because people are fighting over like something that someone said or something that someone misread, like I see so many times where like people comment something, and then someone takes it the wrong way, but they're actually on the same page, and then go off for like 50 comments on fighting and then come to realize that they actually were on the same page. And then you're like, “Wait, hold on, this is not real life. But why are we treating it like it is? “And because it has to do with the fact that we are being extracted from, that our spirits have been sucked out every time we post something. And if you're aware of it, like sometimes I think about this, like, “Man, I'm gonna have to post this but one, like, you know, someone's gonna misrepresent this or like misinterpreted or, you know, is this going to create conflict like, I stopped sharing stuff that is like, extreme anymore, from both sides. I started using social media as this is a great way for people to hear a tiny bit, like a glimpse of who I really am. And then I also know that I'm actually interested in it, like actually love to throw like glitches at it and I like to throw a glitch in the matrix a little bit with social media. But anyways, I don't know if this answer the questions, but I think it just comes back to that idea, it's like, it's not about the tool, it's how we use it and imagine if everyone got off social media for a day, how much money would that lose for Instagram or TikTOk, like would that be millions of dollars? If we just don't engage, like, you're just like, I'm not gonna engage and I'm just gonna step away from this, but we won’t do it because we’re still enamored with the idea of social media.
Ayana Young I just had this vision and maybe I'd seen it in a movie or something, but it's like all of us humans are going around with this kind of zombie brainwash connected to the computer or something, and then all the sudden it disappears and then we're like, standing on the earth, not really knowing where we are, or who we are, what we do next. But there will be something else. I think sometimes when we get wrapped up in these addictive habits, it can feel like well, what would we do without Instagram? Like, we'd be bored, what would we do if we didn’t have these outlets for connection? And I think what we’d learn is that there’s so much more connection to be had, that's probably more meaningful, more impactful, more effective for how we want to be with the Earth and with each other.
But yeah, I like how you said enamored. I think that's a really good word, too. And I see that for us. And it really just makes me think more about extraction, and it's, it's hard because, you know, a lot of us aren't extracting in the sense of fossil fuel extraction for our income. But like we've talked about, photography can be extractive. Honestly, every single way to make money can be extractive and in a sense, has an extractive foundation to it, because that's how our financial capitalistic system is set up. And so I think it's really fascinating, the work that you've been doing with bigger brands, and it's a tricky subject, and that's why I want to hear you talk about it because I think it's important for us to understand because it’s like there is this binary where “this is good”, “this is bad”, and it’s really easy for us to judge things, especially with social media. It's really easy to create conflict out of everything, even though we're all implicated in it together. But I think maybe our brains just want to be able to categorize something. But of course, things are more complex, our lives are more multi dimensional. So I know I'm like going roundabout with this question, but I guess, when I think about creatives and large brands, and how it's not a perfect relationship, it's not to say there's not something worthy in those partnerships. And so I just want to explore how you've been able to navigate the terrain as an Indigenous artist, photographer, working with corporations, and where you see the trouble in that, where you see the growth in that, and what your experiences have been.
Josué Rivas Yeah, thank you for that. You know, that's a really good question, to be honest. Like, I think we need to talk about this more, we can get really extreme in our views, you know, like, on all sides, and I think that what I'm learning more and more is, there are people in these corporations, that’s one thing that was hard for me to understand at first, especially after Standing Rock. How do you go from doing that work and then going into a personal practice with a lot of like personal stories to sitting in a room with 20 different executives, from a really big corporation and them telling you that your work kind of sucks? Like how do you like manage that, and still do the work. And I think that we have to stop being afraid of talking about spirit, in creativity.
And what I mean by that is, the whole thing again with creation, or creator, you know is within us, if we have that at the center of our practice, whatever our practice is, making a great podcast, making an image or directing a music video, a commercial, which is again, it's like, you know, most people will be like, “Oh, my God, you know, those are corporate entities,” and it's like, yeah, but how do show up with that creation within ourselves, let that be the driver, and let that be the guide, even when you have to deal with a corporation. And I think that's what I'm still learning, to be honest. But so far, there have been, you know, opportunities that we literally just don't align, and when we find those opportunities that don't align, we'll have to learn why, you know, it's like, oh, so we didn't do that. Or they said no to this, because, because we actually said the truth, or we actually stated things that were, you know, that were challenging the structure or the intention of a corporation. And I think that that's totally okay. I'm okay with that, like, I'm okay with not being invited to another, you know, next diversity thing at a corporation, I’m okay with that because I’m not making it for them.
Whenever I go and make stuff with brands, we're making that for the community. Like that's who we want to make sure feels good about the things that we’re doing, and that’s really hard to do because community is a completely different thing, you're dealing with a corporation and community, which is complex, it’s not easy or perfect all the time. So, if we can focus on our guide towards the community, then the community informs us of what they like and what they want. Right now obviously there’s a lot of emphasis on Indigenous stories from North America, but you know as we grow I want people to reach out to me because they want to tell human stories, you know, what I'm saying? And it's like, but it will be the same thing, it’s like “Hey can you meet these basic things which are centered around the community and coming back to the community?” Because you're gonna use it to go sell your shoe or sell your t-shirt. But you have to actually reciprocate with the community in a way that makes sense for them, not that makes sense for you. I remember seeing this photographer who is a really famous photographer who photographs Indigenous tribes around the world, and we were on a panel together and I asked them the question, “Hey, how do you pay back these folks? You’re selling these books for $300 that have the faces and people in them.” And he was like “Well, they don't really accept money. They don't care about money, you know, so I'll bring them you know, I'll bring them gifts.” And I was like, yeah, but are you sure they don’t accept money? Kind of pushing back a little bit, and then I realized that this is what work–you know history has never been told from the perspective of the oppressed. How do we make sure that these corporations are telling stories, and honoring the communities that they want to work with, and also not be reactionary. And this goes back to the whole thing about language, and this comes back to the whole thing about why do we send people to war to photograph and not ask them to make work about peace, you know it’s like we have a war photographer award but we don’t have a peace photographer award. It just comes back to the idea that conflict, it’s what feeds the algorithm, and it’s what feeds a corporation, you know there has to be an Adidas to a Nike, because it’s conflict and it’s gonna make all of them more money.
I remember showing up, I mean, I don't know if somebody will hear this from Adidas, or Nike, but I remember showing up to a Nike thing wearing Adidas and I was “‘What is the big deal? It’s my shoe, it’s what I’m wearing today.” Then I realized, “Oh it’s a big deal to them because all they care about is how they’re perceived so they can keep selling stuff.” No shade on any of them, but it’s silly. Sometimes we will show up to places and the community will have very specific needs or requests that might seem weird to a brand, and we’ll say “That’s weird to you, but to the community that’s actually what they need.” And then the whole thing about reaction and being proactive, is in 2020 I had a friend who has a consultancy agency that consults brands about things like diversity and race and all these different things. And he's, you know, he's African American, and we're talking about his growth, like 300% growth through the George Floyd thing and he was really disappointed, because he was knocking on these doors for years and it’s not until someone dies that they will care about putting their black square.
That's another thing that I think is huge with the work in my personal practices, that I don't want to wait until there is a tragedy happening to Indigenous peoples for us to tell Indigenous stories, we have to be so much more proactive and I think that’s what we’re trying to do. So even though Instagram will be there, TikTok will be there, these big corporations will be there, we're a step ahead. We're into the future, you know, like, I'm a futurist at heart. Like I want to plant seeds for trees that I won't get to sit on. And I think that that's, that's a big part of us, you know, challenging these corporations, but then also not being afraid to get in there and be like, “Oh, that's interesting that you have these ideas. There's like, not a lot of percentage of people that will give you different ideas, I see why.” Okay, so maybe you need to probably bring different voices here. You know, that still happens in corporations. Like there's not one person from that thing that they're talking about. And you're like, wait, like, nobody, nobody thought about the fact that you're talking about a story centered around women, there's no women in the room like, we have to be way ahead. And we have to be clear about our agreements. And sometimes it doesn’t work out and that’s totally okay. Like there will always be a Native American heritage month every year and then people will be waiting to make the content, from the content creators it’s just really interesting to me, we just react instead of being like how can we build together?
Ayana Young It's tricky because working with these corporations can be problematic in the sense that there's a real miss in value alignment, and at the same time, they reach so many people. And if we are trying to shift culture, it seems like we need to take every angle possible because, you know, the sad fact is these corporations really impact people on so many levels, but like the psyche, and you think about kids growing up and how children are conditioned and their belief systems are formed based off corporate ads. So, you know, it's like, if we don't get in there, we're missing out on a huge opportunity to potentially shift culture, or at least move some things forward like what you're saying with representation, to create stories or to create conditioning to buy something for a group of people, but those people aren’t represented. It just keeps perpetuating a type of control that I know a lot of us are trying to break and this kind of leads me to this question of what comes after decolonization, and I really am wondering like, how do we make decolonization a rooted and tangible process rather than an ephemeral ideal that's omnipresent, but only ever treated as a metaphor. So I'd love to just riff with you on that for a bit.
Josué Rivas Yeah, man decolonization. Do you remember the first time you heard the word?
Ayana Young Oh, gosh.
Josué Rivas I'm trying to think about mine, but like the first time you heard the word, decolonization and where you heard it from.
Ayana Young I can't remember the exact moment, but I remember a type of excitement, probably.
Josué Rivas To me, I always think about that. I was 17 ish and I was working to help undocumented students in Orange County tell the story about DACA and the DREAM Act, I don't know, remember, that it’s like, trying to give, trying to give a path to citizenship to youth that came here with their parents, and I remember people were talking about that, right? And they were like decolonize college, and then growing up in a Mexican community, a lot of Indigenous–yeah rooted in Indigeneity, a lot of the ways that we live, but also I was like “What does decolonization mean when it comes to the Church?” How do you decolonize from catholicism? So I started going into that path, and I remember very clearly, when I realized that decolonization it's actually, it starts with you, that it's not an external thing. But rather, it's part of the darkness and the shadow of ourselves. It's almost like, I used to be afraid of being colonized. Like I used to be afraid of, like having, colonizing thoughts or colonizing habits, you know, like, especially growing up Catholic, in a very macho culture. I remember thinking that part of our culture, that part of ourselves, instead of fearing it I have to be curious about it, that’s the moment where I really understood the word or the meaning behind the word, or the idea that the way that I live this life is going to affect people in the future, the present as well. At it can also transform energy from the past, that I am past, present, and future all in one and decolonization is part of that, that is part of the complexity of myself, and also the complexity of a community or the complexity of like, our relationship with a corporation, you know, like, it's not just like, it doesn’t have to be this or this it can this and this. And I think that’s when I realized a lot of thoughts about the collective act of decolonization, especially through storytelling and I think there’s a feature, I’m telling you we're gonna realize one day like, “Yo, like, I feel so drained by Instagram, or TikTok, or this next thing that I need to do, because everyone else is doing it” and we're going to return hugging a tree, or like, listening to the ocean, you know, it's like, I know, this sounds like out there, but I think people and this is just my own belief, and my own hope, is that people realize that they don't need an external medium, in order to be okay with themselves, decolonizing can be being okay with who you are and taking an action to be curious and then plant those seeds for the future, knowing that you're not even gonna be there. Knowing the way that I approach my son’s disappointment about soccer, like that’s going to affect his great grandkids, because my son’s gonna remember my reaction. Or when we tell a story and the way you make people feel when you make their images, create something beautiful, that that's gonna like really point to the fact that they're gonna feel great about themselves and maybe transform, and then from there, they're going to affect the community, you know, it's like, it's all about having that self awareness. And being okay with being in the process of doing things and not being like “I’m already decolonized.” You know, I don't think anyone really is, you know, like, even, I mean, I don't know, maybe there's a question for you, like, do you think there is such thing as like, being fully decolonizing, just like, perfectly or almost like it’s a journey that you have to do your whole life.
Ayana Young I would say the latter. I think it is a process. I mean, not to equate it to enlightenment, but I don't think it's something that we can just grab and hold stagnant and think that we've done it. And I think that's part of the pressure of it is that in, at least in the Western reductionist mind, we've really been taught to think that, if we follow a certain protocol, then we'll have achieved whatever it is that we're going for. And if we just follow these rules, then therefore, we get to the top of something and in a sense, like, that, is an antithesis of being present. Or, like even the idea of being present and decolonization, which I think they're connected. It's something to tap into every single day and I think that, you know, especially with decolonization, if we try to put these ideals of perfection and purity on that, not only are we missing the point, but I think we're really setting people up to fail. Because we live within the system that makes it nearly impossible. So in a sense, like, anything we're doing to reconnect and to be aware, should be celebrated. And not told, like, it's not enough, as much as I wish we could do a hell of a lot more like I really do. I really wish we could be faster and more effective in our healing. But, you know, I just don't see us being able to heal in such, like, a firm walled spaces, I don't witness that in myself or others as the way we heal, or the way we become whole. So, I don't know if that answers the question. Maybe that was a little too tangential. But, yeah.
Josué Rivas No, no, I mean, it touches on a lot of good points about like, the journey being educational, almost like you learn from the feedback and from the challenges that arise in your decolonization process, and they become opportunities of transformation, because it really comes down to what we were talking about earlier, but like the camera I believe it’s a transformational tool. Like I really think that when you see yourself, when I see myself in photos I can either feel really bad about myself and mean to myself, or I can be like “Oh that looks like me.” The camera is the reflection, an opportunity to reflect or transform, which I think decolonization is transformation, the transformation process can take a long time.
So, if you make an image, and you have an image of that moment, of that person, or the space, then that can remind us because I think it's about remembering too, like who we are like, we are these beautiful beings that are on this tiny rock going through space that get to have podcasts and you know lattes, and get to go and hug a tree, we forget often how powerful we are as storytellers, as creators, you know. That's why the word bothers me so much when they use it on TikTok. It's like if you only understood what that meant, you would not feed it in the way that you feed it. You would be more protective about it, your energy. But I do think that the camera, it’s a great tool and we can get into AR and VR but that’s just an extension of the attempt to try and make sense of ourselves and remember, but it’s corrupted. A lot of the time these technologies can be useful for certain things, but they can also like, in the hands of corporations I think that they get misused to create not the reality of who we really are, which is powerful. Like when I go on social media, after scrolling or whatever I feel like my power was just taken away from me, I need to recover that. So I’ve been using it as a tool to share a little bit of the process, and you know the things that are happening, but I guess I’m decolonizing/transforming my relationship with social media. And that’s the messed up part, is I think one day we’re all going to have to, there will be no choice, you either choose to not engage with this in the way that you have been engaging, which I think for a lot of people is going to be too late, or you can choose to just go away from it. What are the teachings of the trees? Plants? Animals? That is right there. You don’t see an eagle and say “Oh my god, I need to go check out their profile, make sure that their status is–” that’s not how nature works. So social media and technology are unnatural attempts to make us have a sense of self.
Ayana Young I'm thinking about your work with sanctuary cities and gentrification. In your YES! Magazine piece, you write “Documenting this sanctuary city also represented a return to places that I knew in my youth,” so I’d just love to hear more about your journey, and the process of documenting what that was for you. And just more about your role as photographer and yeah, what brought you here led you to this work?
Josué Rivas Yeah. So like I shared earlier, my dad, you know, my dad was a photographer, my mom was a photographer. So I grew up seeing a lot of these interactions, because my mom and my dad did a lot of wedding, baptisms. We lived in Mexico. So I grew up seeing a lot of that, and also like the dynamic of my mom and my dad, and how my dad was like, my dad was always giving away the photos that he was supposed to be selling. Like he was, he was notorious for that, because people didn't have enough money or, you know, somebody was like, “Hey, give me like two for one,” you know, he’d just do it. So that would create conflict between my mom and my dad, and I remember though, also, having a teaching where as I got older, I realized that everywhere we went, we would be fed. Every single time like we would go to a different pueblo around our area and everybody knew my dad because he had you know, at some point, probably giving them like free photographs. So now in retrospect, you know, it's like, I think getting older when I first came to the United States when I was 11, I was battling with a lot of that, my relationship with photography, migrating to a place that that was culturally and energetically very different, but also very, it was like, I'm like America was defined in my mind, like, oh, America is this, you know, the United States is this, you know, in Spanish we say el norte, the north is like this, and then realizing, as I got older, my early 20s, the power of plant medicine to help me find my place in this place, and help me transform my wounds from the relationship with my father and transform the wounds of my relationship with the camera. You know, it was, I was a young man, early 20s, transforming and then realizing that transformation is healing. Tha in that process of me accepting that, my father calls me for the first time in like, 18 years, and he's like, “Hey, you know, I miss you, I want to apologize for you growing up the way that you did.” Unfortunately, when I was young, you know, seven to 11 I was houseless, living on the streets, in Mexico.
I think he just felt that energy from that ceremony, he apologized and said “I’m gonna send you my camera.” I have it behind me now, my dad’s camera, and he’s like “I'm gonna send you this camera” without him knowing anything, like, you know, so I will say I think the camera picked me up, you know, because now, this thing that I was using, and I realized later on that wherever I put my lens, that thing would amplify and, you know, like, learning on like, what do I want to amplify, you know, like, how do I want to use this, this gift, this medicine that that was given to me, through my father, through the lineage of storytellers, to use it for learning and transformation. And then I realized, as I was telling my story more, especially after Standing Rock, exploring my own narratives that I have within myself, the complexities, then I started seeing if you just set it up for other people to do that on their own, you can start expanding and opening this portal for people to transform themselves. Like, it's as simple as that. When we have the opportunity to tell a story with intention, and not just like, take a selfie, or like, do like a really random dance at Walmart, like, when we actually are intentional about it, and we're using it, then that thing amplifies us and amplifies our ancestors and the future generations.
So anyways, through this journey I ended up in Orange County when I was 21. Going back to Orange County, in California, in Santa Ana, which was a city that I grew up in, it was part of that transformational energy, that healing energy, to see it differently, because I think that, you know, knowing that I'm not from here, meaning that I'm not from here, based on the lens of an American lens, you know, like a colonized lens, you know, to that degree, you know, I mean, but my peoples, and all of our peoples throughout this continent have been engaging in sharing with each other since time immemorial. Turtle Island, you know Anahuac, what we call Turtle Island, that I am from here and I am meant to tell these stories and connect with these relatives and share my gift, which happens to be storytelling with visuals. And to co-create with people, now I’m in a space, where I know that there’s a generation of storytellers, especially Indigenous storytellers that are coming up and are going to completely shift the way that we see ourselves and the way that people see us. Then I hope and I pray about this a lot, is that we realize that it's not just Indigenous peoples that can allow us to return back to a more Earth based life, that we have to collaborate, literally collaboration is key for the next phase of humanity, in this next paradigm. And if we don't collaborate with each other, and we don't respect each other's like, ways that we speak to each other when we're making an image or, you know, the way we reciprocate with people, make sure that they're taken care of financially as well, you know, that you pay them, pay people. Like if we can realize that we do these things intentionally now, then when the tragedy happens, then we won't react to the tragedy. And then we'll be equipped that we will not only overcome the tragedy and be ahead of it. But also, that it's going to help the next generation so much better, if I can heal myself and I can find a place of healing within my own story, then those descendants are going to be recipients of that one day, like if I can deal with my own trauma, my own wounds, intergenerational wounds, and then at the very least attempt to, to heal them and transform them, then I know that there will people in the future that are gonna look back and be like, “Oh, yeah, like, my grandpa did this and this and this.” Or this photo book from my grandpa that he left behind, or you know I will probably do some weird AR/VR, so they can see like it’s Star Wars or something, but then you know, you’ll be able to share the stories. I’m going to be an ancestor one day, that trips me out, one day I won’t be here and people are going to be like “What did you leave behind? What were those messages? What was the healing process for you Josué?” So we can learn from that and know where we come from, so that we know where we are going. That's a long answer.
Ayana Young No, but it’s a great one, I really appreciate your time with us today and I look forward to watching and learning and seeing what you create.
Josué Rivas Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate that. And thank you for having me today.
Francesca Glaspell Thank you for listening to For The Wild Podcast. The music you heard today was by Gerardo Vaquero and Julio Kintu, The Mysterious They, and María José Montijo. For The Wild is created by Ayana Young, Erica Ekrem, Francesca Glaspell, and Julia Jackson.