Transcript: DIANA FRIEDRICH on the Beauty and Promise of Rewilding /339
Ayana Young Hello and welcome to For The Wild Podcast. I'm Ayana Young. Today we are speaking with Diana Friedrich.
Diana Friedrich I have to remind myself every day when I see these facts on how the world is collapsing to say, No, I'm not doing it to save the world. I'm doing it for myself because I enjoy the process because I'm surrounded by loving people who feel the same and not forget about the big context, but remembering that we do this for ourselves. We do this because it is the purpose of our lives.
Ayana Young Diana is a naturalist and adventurer. From a very early childhood, her parents took her and her four siblings traveling to the wildest and most remote places of Argentina and Chile. Right after finishing high school, she volunteered and worked at several conservation organizations in Argentina. She received a degree in nature conservation in South Africa, and worked in nature reserves and communities in Zimbabwe, Kenya, and Tanzania. In Argentina, Diana coordinated field activities at the hooded grabby project for three seasons, and worked as a field technician on Rewilding Argentina's project to reintroduce giant anteaters and red and green macaws. She currently lives in Patagonia and manages the Patagonia Azul Projects, Parks and Communities Program.
Diana, this is so exciting and also feels very full circle to be speaking with you today. I had mentioned a bit before we started the official interview that I fell in love with the wild in Patagonia, as well as, well, how can I say this, the podcast idea came to me driving the dirt roads through Argentina and Chile. And so even just the few moments we got to talk before this, I started being transported back to a decade ago, when I was so naive really. I don't know how to say it, but just at the beginnings of this journey with the podcast so I'm really looking forward to connecting and so happy to be transported back to the land that you dedicate so much of yourself to.
Diana Friedrich Thank you, Ayana, for having me. I'm also super excited. As I told you just now, I have been listening to For The Wild podcast for a long time. And we always share these episodes that we like most and we listened to them on the long roads in Patagonia, because the sensors are huge here. So what is the best way to travel and to learn about the things that happen elsewhere in the world and have philosophical conversations. So I'm really, really excited to have this conversation with you. And I'm so happy you know where I am and how it looks like.
Ayana Young Yeah oh, I'm remembering the dirt roads, the long distances, I think that really captivated my heart to be in a place that was so vast and that although I am reminded of this land, I'd love if you could share with listeners details about this landscape that you're on and kind of take us there, transport us to what it feels like and looks like and smells like even. I think that'd be a really beautiful way to ground this conversation.
Diana Friedrich Yeah, definitely. Patagonia is at the southern tip of South America, in Argentina and Chile. And they are two very different parts in Patagonia. They are the mountains in the Andes. And it's full of lakes and forests, which make it very, very beautiful and diverse and beautiful to hike. And then the winds go over the Andes from Chile, and all the rain falls down there and after that the clouds are dry, the wind continues but dry, completely dry and then a big desert forms. It's not a desert like sand dunes, but a steppe. It has thorny bushes and grasses. And then where I am is already on that Atlantic side. And I live on a very, very wild coastline with huge rocks and big waves and lots of wind and the ocean is very, very, very blue. And what's special about this place is that we have more than 60 islands and the islands are teeming with wildlife. There are sea lions and penguin colonies and giant petrels and cormorants. And then in the ocean in the water, we have four different species of whales, and two or three different species of dolphins. And yeah, it is, it is amazing to be here with all this wildlife surrounding. It's one of the places where you can see wild love the easiest, because it's so wonderful out there on the islands where the colonies are.
And this place, what is also very remarkable is that Patagonia used to be inhabited by ancestral tribes, people that lived here and had lived here for six 6000 years before the white colonizer arrived. And first, it was just explorers, and then well, the people that came to colonize. Nowadays, it's sad that there is nothing left of those people that lived here before, but their paintings in some rock heads. And the archaeologists dig out some of the things they had. But it was a very, very drastic change from these people, to the white people, bringing the sheep and killing off even the guanacos and the native wildlife that was here. So it's always very important to remember that. Patagonia still seems like a very wild place, but is actually very tamed already, or very desertified by the human. And what I am working on here now is on the ocean, which is going the same path to being desertified.
Ayana Young Mm hmm. Thank you for sharing all that. And I love to hear more about this path to desertification that you just spoke about on the ocean and, maybe also to give some more background on Rewilding Argentina and the work you've been doing across the realms of conservation down there.
Diana Friedrich So Rewilding Argentina is the organization that was born when Doug and Chris Tompkins came down to South America and started buying land in order to give it back to the state. You know what I just said is that colonizers came and took big swaths of land for themselves and colonized with sheep, and Doug and Chris did exactly the opposite. Reversed this process by buying the land back and donating it to the states of Chile and Argentina. That's something they started doing. And then now it's Rewilding Argentina that keeps this legacy alive and keeps doing this work.
And halfway, we have learned that just buying the land and donating it to the state is not enough because many species were already extinct. So we started this rewilding process where we started bringing back the species that were extinct and also controlling the invasive species that are everywhere. And the oldest and most important project we have for now is in the north of Argentina, and a big wetland. It's called the Iberá wetlands, where we have reintroduced the jaguar, which was extinct in that province, among 10 other species that were also brought back.
And then the youngest project is this one where I am at called Patagonia Azul, because that means blue Patagonia because it is on that Atlantic Ocean and we aim to create a huge marine protected area here. We are working on little reserves, provincial reserves that were created by the province long ago. And we are also inside a biosphere reserve that was created, declared by the UNESCO but that actually means nothing in the Argentinian goal, it's just a declaration that helps us to say that internationally, this place was viewed as an important site for conservation. So we took the name of this biosphere reserve, Patagonia Azul, and we aim to protect around the 100,000 square kilometers of this ocean that we have here. That is so so important to sustain the life on Earth.
Ayana Young That's really exciting and healing work. I am imagining it now. And I feel like I'm standing in these places with you and I want to read something from your website Rewilding Argentina. And it says, quote, "Rewilding Argentina is a foundation created to confront and reverse the crisis of species extinction and the resulting environmental degradation to restore the healthy functioning of ecosystems and to promote the well being of local communities," end quote. And so I'm wondering, I'm trying to, I guess, see a fuller picture of what it takes to rewild and restore, Of course, speaking about the reintroduction of jaguar, but what else has to happen on the ground, especially with landscapes that have been degraded and land use change has occurred over the years of colonization, with herding, sheepherding, and I'm sure other development projects. So I don't know if I want to ask, what's the first step, but more? What is the process? Because I would imagine it's very full in scope.
Diana Friedrich Yeah. And that is a very good question. Because I could say some biological things that you could do, but actually the most important first step that you have to do in any conservation project, and I think everyone will agree who lives on the ground, and does what I do is to get to know the community, and be part of the community of the people that live here. Because they are the ones who've lived here for longer than we have. And they are generally not aware of the need, of the changes that we are aware of. At least I come from the big city Buenos Aires. And I know, I have traveled and I've read and I've seen and I've studied what's happening to the planet. And I've felt it in my own body and I've seen many things. And so I come into this small town where all this is just far away talk that they are not aware of very often. And something that they don't realize in their own lives yet. And you come and tell them that now their life has to change. And now they have to do something else. And now the economy is wrong, and the sheep are wrong, and the fishing industry is wrong, and everything is wrong. And then they say, so what, so we've been doing this for ages, and nothing that's wrong about this. And then you start the whole conflict that is actually completely useless, because this is about everyone. And this is about the world and about biodiversity and about living in better conditions and in a more beautiful world. Because no one wants to destroy anything anymore. And actually, what I think is the fishing industry is destroying the world. So why is everyone against this? That is what actually happened to us. And I was extremely careful because I knew, and I really wanted to be part of this community. And so it is super difficult.
So what is most important than this process is to get along well with the community and have them on your side. This, what I just said is in every manual and in every class, and it's known already. Because it happens, I think every time in every project, it's the most difficult thing to do. And I am always very surprised when I see how maybe a fishing industry comes into this town and gives people a lot of jobs. But with our project, we also aim to give people a lot of jobs with the tourism, nature-tourism industry and other things too. But it's a longer process so they can't see it.
And so yeah, what we're working on now mainly is on bringing the community here into the protected area into the place where we work, to make them feel how important it is to be connected with nature and make them see everything there is because most of them haven't even gone into the ocean. Most of them don't know what the wildlife looks like on the islands. Many people in this town called [unknown] don't have the possibility to get on a boat and go to the park to the islands, see all the wildlife that is there. And even the worst if they had boats, some couldn't even go because most of the coastline is private ranches that have owners that don't let people go through their ranch to access the coast. So it's basically blocked for the people. The park has no access. And what we do at Rewilding Argentina through the ranch that we purchased a few years ago that has a long coastline is to give people access to the park, to the ocean, to their islands, to the wildlife that is there and show them the treasure that they have right before their doors.
Ayana Young I'm really grateful that you brought up the challenges of community unification. Because I think this is, gosh, it's nuanced and challenging. And there's so many words I could think of, but I, I understand what you're speaking about it with, you know how to build inroads into communities. And I would love to even hear a bit more about whether some of the challenges some of the wins that you've had what you've seen work on psychological levels, because, you know, we've all been conditioned and raised in different ways, and our belief systems and our value systems stem from so much input. And I could imagine coming into a town and telling people they're doing something wrong is not a great conversation starter. And it's not a great way to build trust. And so, you know, I hear that part of that trust building and relationship building is providing access to community members who hadn't had that for potentially hundreds of years. But there's also, of course, the economic discussion of if you take a community's way of supporting themselves off the table, or are saying that's not good for the environment. But What other choice do they have? And so, of course, you brought up a bit about ecotourism. So maybe we could talk about alternative economics, in ecotourism, or otherwise, and the benefits and issues there, and, and maybe just other stories of how you've built trust, and what have been the hard moments that you've gotten through and where you see people really starting to shift and change their belief systems.
Diana Friedrich Okay, so I'll start with the last question, that is the alternative economy that we are proposing to them. So we did this already in the Iberá wetland, in the north of Argentina, and it has worked perfectly, but obviously, that was another context. So here, we went for the same model where we say, nature-tourism, and this area could create so many jobs, and so much income. And so we started giving courses and workshops to them on how to do these new jobs, you know, like guiding, and diving, snorkeling and when hiking, we need guides for everything for all of these activities. And we could do these all in the ranch that we bought, or you have this huge and beautiful bay, where you can dive very safely and snorkel and kayak and everything. So we could do this. But as I said, they still very much believe that they are a fishery town, even though they are not. There are not really not many people who live off the fishing industry. But anyway. And the way of approaching them, the best way we found is when they see that you are a human being just like them. And that what you do is just a job too and that you have a big passion for something that they love too. And when you get to that point where you connect to a person in that way, then you've won, then there's a spark of trust that you can build up onto. We have a few of those examples. And obviously, you try to do that with the most people possible, but it's impossible to do it with everyone.
And so what we also do is we take people, we take mainly the school children, to our park, camping, having amazing experiences in the wild with them so that they can connect with us, but also with the land and with the ocean. So we have an ocean club where we teach children to swim and to snow cold, and take them to different points of the park that they've never seen before. And we take them to the islands and show them the wildlife. And then also we always teach them that there are so many more opportunities than what they've seen so far. And that they must just be curious and explore and do what they really love to do and not just for the money as long as they can choose obviously.
And then further we do another work that is comparing how much really comes in from the fishing industry and how much should we generate by a tentative economic activity such as tourism. But we also explored regenerative ocean farming and holistic ranch management and well, we developed a whole local veggie garden to produce local food. So we're not only focused on tourism, because we know that while the pandemic told us that, that is not enough, but this little town is so full of opportunities that for now very few people are [unknown.] So for me, as a human, as a young woman, it's also amazing to explore. And that is what actually is the best thing about this job for me to be here, to have so many opportunities and being able to just explore what's good, what's not good, what works, what doesn't? And, yeah, I think that is very exciting. And also to see how people react to everything, and, and how they feel, how they see it. Because sometimes you bring very amazing ideas from the world and, and it's just out of context or out of the time. It's not right, it's not the right moment. So it's been very interesting and challenging for me, but also fun.
Ayana Young Yeah, I think there's something to sparking people's creativity, both your own, of course, but the communities because so many of us feel stuck or think there's only a certain amount of options. But to be able to stretch and expand and inspire each other and feed each other's curiosity of what else is possible. You know, how can we either make money in different ways? Or what can we do to support each other without money? So we don't need to rely on capitalism in the same ways, because our basic needs like food are being provided, that's also better for us, because it's local, and so on and so forth. I really appreciate the holistic way you understand preservation of community and ecology, it's, you know, it's really hard. Yeah, it's so much.
Diana Friedrich It's a lot. And also, it takes patience, because when you hear the global statistics of what's happening to the ocean, so don't worry about these jobs. I mean, they're going to be lost. So you better try and find alternatives before everything is lost, you know. But that's what I said in the beginning. That's what doesn't help. Because if they can't see it, if they can't feel it, because they just in another context, then well, I've learned you can't judge that and you just have to be patient and adjust to their context...because when I arrived here in Cameroon, my first thing that I wanted to do is to really be part of the community and feel like I'm part and belong to this place. And it is very difficult for me because I am not from here and they make me feel it every day. The people from the local community that were born here, they make a point of telling people who are not born in the town that they are not from here. It's difficult, but I always try to tell them, what if I don't want to be where I was born? What if I like it here? Can't I be from here? I think I can. I swim in the ocean more than you. I love this place. I want to protect it. So can I be part of this?
And so I think that is so important that sometimes we humans say it's more important to be from somewhere than to feel from somewhere and I really love this place. And as I said, we swim in the ocean every day, even in winter we try. And we love the wildness and we are really inspired. And there's something there's really magic here that brings many people together, especially in our team. We're many woman and that is such a special energy that I think that builds up here, that inspires me every day to be here and to fight for for the ocean, to make a better world and, above all, to to bring back the magic of being connected among us with ourselves and and with the wild, with the real rough and aggressive sort of wilderness that surrounds us that obviously doesn't want us to be here because it expels us. It is hard fresh wind and very cold water and very dry, spiny landscape. But still that is like the magic. Being there and, and surviving and having each other an energy that builds up here is what I look for. So I would like everyone to feel that. I would like to be a stronger community where everyone knows that this energy is so special here and that we need to protect above all else.
[Musical break]
Ayana Young You're speaking my heart language, Diana. I feel you. I love that raw and intense and aggressive wildness. It's like nothing else and it moves me and changes me and humbles me and I'm so grateful to feel the earth so potently. And I also am called by these places to protect them and to be with them and to push myself out of a lot of comfort. But yeah, the comfort is just not worth the experience of living somewhere so epic and forceful. And I really hear the magic in your voice and the magic of the land speaks through you. It's beautiful.
I realize how unique Argentina is in its conservation efforts and there's a quote from Rewilding Argentina, where it says, quote, "Currently Argentina along with Uruguay is one of the countries with the greatest loss of animal species in South America. The prospect is discouraging. But at the same time in Argentina, we have an enormous potential to restore our ecosystems through wilding. We are fortunate to have a relatively well consolidated national park system with rooms for expansion as well as the knowledge and technology to bring back lost species," end quote. So I guess I'm wondering, what role do national parks and national policy play in Argentina's conservation efforts?
Diana Friedrich Well, the National Parks Administration is the oldest organization here, conservation organization, and the strongest in Argentina. We need to pass two laws in order to create a national park because we're a very federal country. And we have a lot of national parks, very well managed by the National Park System, but it wouldn't grow as much weren't it for the NGOs from Argentina, Rewilding Argentina, but also, there are many others that also work every day to create new national parks. And I think on Earth, we are doing pretty well, or I think we have to keep working more mainly on the ocean because only less than 10% of our ocean is protected in real, marine protected areas. But even there, it is still allowed to fish. And also they were created in areas where there were very little fishing vessels working.
So what we're trying to do here is to reach the agreement that we've signed with all the other countries to reach 30% of our ocean protected before 2030. And, well, we still have 20% to go, so we have a lot of work to do. And the marine protected area that we're proposing is more than 100,000 square kilometers big. While that's what we hope for, and it's also a very heavily fished area. But in that sense, the National Parks Administration is a very good stakeholder of ours, but we constantly push them to do more as I think is a role in society, for NGOs pushing the state to do more and to do better. We really rely on each other and we work together to do this. And as we work together, obviously, sometimes there are problems but that only demonstrates that we really work. So I think, obviously, what is most important is to rewild to bring back the species to the national parks where they've been extinct, because as habitat loss between different parks connection is lost, and then species go extinct faster. So we need to work more on establishing corridors are the species between parks, and to really protect the species within the parks and to make parks much bigger, because otherwise some species who need a lot of habitat don't have enough.
So those are our worries. I think and at this time, as well as invasive species, which are very, very difficult to control which is a big problem. And for the state, that is often way too expensive to do, so that's I think we are also good allies in that sense, where we try to do the best we can to control some species that are really, really bad for the wildlife or the native species.
Ayana Young Gosh, the invasive species topic is such a challenging one because it's hard to know sometimes how to deal with these invasive species. I'm not a, you know, I don't feel usually in favor of using poisons and stuff like that to kill invasive species which I know are done in some places. And I've had conversations with people who are completely against invasive species and think that no matter what they should be removed by any means possible to protect the native species and other people have more of an outlook of well, what are the invasive species offering us? Why are they growing here? Is there some type of benefit? Or can we understand the earth is ever changing, and that species are moving around the planet all the time, especially plant species, with seeds on the wind and you know, in the feathers of birds and things like that.
So I guess that kind of leads me to this question around, acknowledging the biodiversity loss, and then the scope of what there is still to lose and the Nature Conservancy in Argentina writes, quote, "Argentina is emblematic of Latin America's abundance of life and ecosystems. The country's 18 eco regions form a complex territory that includes a subtropical zone, the Antarctic, the tallest mountains in the Americas, and some of the Atlantic's oceans greatest steppes. According to the National biodiversity strategy, Argentina is the habitat of 1,002 bird varieties and hundreds of reptile mammal and amphibian species. Unfortunately, 25% of them are under the threat of extinction, according to the International Union for Conservation of Nature, or the IUCN," end quote.
So there's this general question that I am feeling is like, can we even fully understand the scope and scale of biodiversity loss? But maybe a more specific question would be around something you discussed during the global biodiversity festival that the Tompkins conservation put on, which is you discussing how biodiversity was instrumental in the recovery of the Iberia wetlands following forest fires? Yeah, I guess I'm wondering if you can explain a bit more about this process and the ecosystem wide interdependence that comes from biodiversity?
Diana Friedrich Yeah. So it's exactly what you said. The biodiversity builds resilience, the more biodiversity there is the more resilient as an ecosystem. If Iberá was not invaded with times that they planned for the paper industry, which are incredibly huge monocultures, then the fires wouldn't be so bad. And if it wasn't over grazed by thousands of cows, then the ecosystem would be more resilient because there would be swamps and forests in the middle and fires would be different, you know, they would burn in different temperatures and different places and not so immense. And so I think that is a very good example of how we change everything and then we are confronted with these questions. Is it good or bad to eradicate or to control invasive species? Well, if invasive species reduce the biodiversity, then I think we have no option because if we don't, then ecosystems become simpler and simpler until they can't be sustained anymore. And we are destroying habitat at a rate that is incredible. And that's exactly the dilemma that I was speaking about before. I know a lot of things that are happening that people from the town where I live, don't know of, and then I get so sad and and it's so horrible to see how the fishing industry is bottom trawling the ocean floors and taking everything that's in their way out of the ocean, to process it, and take it overseas to I don't even know who eats the fish that is fished in Argentina. And that industry seems to be more important to defend than the diversity that we have.
I don't know, it makes me so sad. And so I don't know, I don't know. It's so difficult to know what's right and what's wrong. If so many people say it's right to fish, it's wrong to take out all the fish out of the ocean, even though all half of the oxygen that we breathe is generated in a healthy ocean. It is our life, we are nothing without the ocean, but the ocean needs to be healthy and full of life in order to absorb 30% of the carbon we emit. That is a good service for us. But if we emit more carbon then the ocean absorbs it. And that's bad for it. It affects our life in the ocean. And 95% of all life on Earth is in the ocean. Most of it. So if we destroyed the ocean, if we managed to do to the ocean what we do to the earth, then we're doomed, basically. And we pulled out 100 million tons of fish out of the ocean every year. There's such an incredible number, 100 million tons of fish every year. And now, obviously, they are already saying that fish stocks are declining and marine life populations are declining. And what we give back to the ocean is lots of garbage. So obviously all is very depressing. And I wouldn't like to say all the things I know about this, because I try not to think about it too much. Because I know that even though it seems like we're lost, we still have to keep working. And we have to believe in the magic. And we have to be here and do our little good for the planet every day. And that's what will keep us alive and breathing and, and happy.
I know that in Argentina, we are doing very many things very badly. As much as in South America as a whole because we live in the third world. Somehow the first world countries take a lot of the resources that we have exported without asking. And those are the injustices that happened in the world. And what frustrates me the most is that most of our problems are based on a lack of good administration. If we would organize ourselves better, then none of this would be a problem because there is enough food for everyone. And there's enough space to live for everyone. I think there is enough money for everyone. We just have to be fair, and, and organize ourselves better. And so yeah, that is something I try to implement in my work every day.
Ayana Young I feel you, the heartbreak and frustration. But it's amazing how much we're consuming as a humanity and how much waste is being produced from that consumption is kind of infuriating, actually, whether it's the fishing industry or plastic products going into landfills at such exorbitant rates. It's really a type of insanity. And there's this question that I want to ask and don't which is can we ever really go back? Even if we changed everything starting tomorrow? Or what does the future have in store for us? Not that we can even really answer that. But just this question around the reclamation after mass extinction.
And yeah, there was this quote from the Tompkins conservation from the "25 a Quarter Century of Work to Save the Wild" and it was, "Landscapes badly damaged by past land use practices often show remarkable resilience if exploitative activity is ended and natural processes are given freedom to begin the work of recovery, " end quote. Which is really relieving to read that, especially when we're in the midst and mired in the statistics of how much is being lost, like what you were speaking to about the fishing industry, and the heap of the plantation pines, and just on and on and on, it's like, oh, my gosh, how do we even begin to wrap our heads around this?
But I guess, when we're thinking about this work of recovery, there's a lot of questions that come to me, there's, of course, wondering about more detail of what this work of recovery has been for you, which we've heard a bit about. But there's also these more general questions I'm coming to which is from what are the actual goals of conservation? And even how do we see beyond the savior mindset that conservation is seen to take on and probably does take on and some people's work, but rather, knowing what we're up against, knowing that we don't know the future, probably knowing that we can't go back? What is a deeper conversation into regenerative relationship from where we are right now?
Diana Friedrich I think there are a few things that we can still do and I don't think and haven't read that we're lost already completely. That if we started tomorrow, we could still go back to bringing the ocean back to life. It's not dead yet. And I've heard one person say that, you know that the ocean, every country has the first 200 nautical miles belongs to the economic exclusive zone of each country. And from there on it's everyone's and no one's land. And that means that 60% of the ocean is no man's land. So it's not very clear who can fish there and can't and it's obviously, the more important countries, the fishing countries, that have the biggest fleets and the most money and the most subsidies that go with fish there. And this person says, if we just closed this part of the ocean to everyone to be fair, then every country could just fish in its own exclusive economic zone. And then we would have 60% of the ocean protected. That is like a fish bank, you know, and that will be good. But instead of that they are discussing how to create marine protected areas in that 60% of the global ocean, which is very difficult, because if we can't even create proper marine protected areas in our own exclusive economic zones, then how would we protect and do that in the global ocean that is not even ours? I'm not sure that would work.
But it makes me very hopeful that someone is at least thinking about two thirds of the ocean that could be completely protected. And then, what I also think on a more personal and local scale is that if we could just start doing things from a more loving position, and not just always trying to find the best strategy. The best strategy to approach a community with a new conservation project and tell them you're going to save their world or save them or something, as you said, the savior mentality... the best strategy to replace one economy with another. We always think about strategies and never from the love and the joy and the dream of living. That dream–living in this beautiful society where we all protect the ocean together and enjoy the process together, because it is actually such a beautiful process. It is such a nice purpose for your life, to give yourself to doing something good for everyone for yourself, first and foremost, but also for your neighbor and your sister and your team and your family and your community. I think that is for me the most hopeful and the most important thing that I have to remind myself every day when I see these facts on how the world is collapsing. To say no, I'm not doing it to save the world and doing it for myself because I enjoy the process because I'm surrounded by loving people by passionate people who do the same, who feel the same, could do this for the joy of it for swimming in the ocean every day, for talking to my neighbor every day to growing my veggies in the garden every day and not forget about the big context. While we do that, not forgetting about the fishing industry that is destroying the world. But that must be our focus because then we're doing it. Because if everyone's just focused on destroying the fishing industry, we're not any better than those destroying the world. And we will never be able to do that anyway. I think we have to work consistently on remembering that we do this for ourselves. We do this because it is the purpose of our lives, and you get inspiration from it. And I get inspiration from the ocean. And from my friends who work here with me, who are actually my sisters and my brothers. And I think if we could concentrate and get more people to see things like that, then life would be much easier.
Ayana Young Well, not to change the topic from something so beautifully relational, but I did want to also touch on the topic of the value of regulations, and then maybe go into a bit of 30 by 30. And I really appreciate that much of the work at Rewilding Argentina includes work on regulations to protect landscapes and ecosystems. Although I completely recognize that often governments and corporations will always try to work around and often even ignore regulations many times with no consequences. But I still think there is value in pushing for regulation and accountability. So I'd love to hear some examples of regulations and laws that you see actually working for conservation interests.
Diana Friedrich So the main law that works for conservation interests is national parks. Once a national park is created, it is very, very, very difficult to reverse. And it actually never happened. And with a national park, the land is protected, the animals and even the subsoil and the atmosphere above it. So you can really do nothing destructive in a national park. And for us, that has worked the best. That's why we work on those regulations more than anything else. And that is also why we want to try to expand the protection of the ocean by creating more parks or big park in the ocean and not by regulating the fishing industry or something else, because, as you said, it's very difficult to see if they are complying with it. And also, I don't think there is a better way of fishing industrially that is less harmful. Of course, it's going to be less harmful. But is it enough? I don't think so.
I think we need big reserves, where it's completely forbidden to bottom throw at least, we have a very shallow exclusive economic zone of only 100 meters depth and very, very [unknown] ocean floor. So it's perfect for bottom trawling for shrimp and hake. And the problem is when you throw, you don't only get shrimp and hake in your nets, you get everything else. You get the sharks and the whales and the dolphins and the sea lions. Everything. And you can save that you can put it back into the ocean. While they do they throw it back but it's already dead. And that creates huge problems also because all those dead fish going back into the ocean, that also they breathe that pollutes the ocean and creates huge areas without oxygen. It is a real problem, this bottom trolling. I would work for a better artisanal fishing fleet, where each community that lives close to the ocean can obviously fish in a very, very sustainable and artisanal way without destroying the habitat of the fish but just taking the fish they need and selling it on the local market. I would be very much in favor of that. But in Argentina, the artisanal fishing fleet is semi-industrial, so they have capacity for 600 tons of fish and they may even bottom trawl, so that's not an artisanal at all. And it's not for the local fish market, but it's also for export.
So I've seen examples in other countries such as Mexico, for example, where the local fishermen are really artisanal fishers, and they've done it for ages. Their family lived on fishing forever. So I think those are the best allies for fighting against the industrial destruction of the oceans. The problem is, you know, in Argentina, there are only very few real artisanal fishermen so the regulations that we implement are mainly creating national parks. And we work very hard on making that national park really work not only abandoning the land there once the laws created, but working on, as I said, rewilding, controlling exotic species, controlling poaching, and building the fences around it so the cows don't go in, for example. And in the ocean, that would be to bring in Global Fishing Watch and other technologies to monitor the area, and really avoid fishing in our parks.
Ayana Young I'm also wondering about 30 by 30. And some folks listening may not be aware, but in the conservation world, it's a pretty big agreement. And Oceania explains, quote, "During the 15th, the Conference of the Parties to the UN Convention on Biological Diversity COP 15. In Canada last December 2022, nearly 200 countries approved an ambitious agreement that includes the 30 by 30 target, better methods of measuring progress, and an acknowledgement of the importance of working closely with indigenous peoples and other local communities whose history and connections to the land and sea must be respected," end quote. So maybe you could give us an intro into 30 by 30. And then I'd love to hear your opinion on how effective are global regulations, suggestions, agreements, etc, like this in both on the ground work, and maybe even in the mindset changes regarding conservation.
Diana Friedrich I think this agreement has been quite international. I have been traveling and been on a few congresses where they speak about this. And it seems like every country is very committed to trying to achieve that 30% before 2030. Obviously, there are countries who are more committed and some are overachievers such as Australia and Panama and some other countries that have way past that 30% already. The problem is we don't need to just declare marine protected areas everywhere, and not really protect them. Because what is most important is that those areas are really free of any industrial activity. And that is not always the case. That is the problem. And the paper parks is what they say now is a very big trend. Many countries have reached the 30%. And they actually haven't restricted fishing in any of the 30% of the parks that they created. So that is of no value. It is just a declaration and in Argentina, we are at less than 10%. And what we are doing at the moment, what is most important is to put this thing in the political agenda to make politicians aware that Argentina has signed an agreement and it is very important to to reach that percentage and that somebody has to do it. It's not just an agreement that you can sign and then wait for others to create these protected areas.
And so what we're doing here, for example, is this month in June, we are having a big congress where we have invited people internationally to give talks about how marine protected areas work in other places, and how everyone has signed this agreement of 30 by 30. And how important it is that Argentina has also signed it but needs to work towards reaching that percentage. And then we have local scientists who will listen to these talks and also give their own talks about how important the biodiversity of the Argentinian Sea is. And then we have local politicians that we very much want to hear all this. And then in October we have the elections. So we really want to put this in the public agenda. Before the next president or next governor of this province gets into office. And after this Congress, we're gonna really work so that they start speaking about the ocean in their public speeches and all that.
It's a whole, very strange work that I have found myself doing these days. But I'm seeing how important that is because everyone who has an interest in doing something speaks with the local leaders, and the local leaders are the ones that then go to the regional leaders, and then the national leaders. And I think it is such a beautiful concept to see that we from territory, we as inhabitants of a place are putting this into the light into the focus of people and saying this is important to consider also, not just all the other aspects of your agenda. And about the 30 by 30, I won't say I don't believe that Argentina is going to reach it in time, but at least we're going to work very hard to get closer to it. And if we do, then it's going to be a real park and not a paper park that I am committed to.
Ayana Young Hmmm, Diana, thank you for explaining some of those nitty gritty details with us. These big global programs can feel overwhelming to understand. And I also just want to thank you for taking us so many places. I really appreciated the mix of the magical with the logistical and the struggle and the heart that you bring to this work and I could talk to you for many more hours and I hope we get a second conversation to keep diving deeper. I really appreciate your time.
Diana Friedrich Thank you so much, Ayana, for having me and I hope people will come to Patagonia to see the complex reality of this place and the beauty and the magic that is here.
Evan Tenenbaum Thanks for listening to For The Wild. The music you are today is by Aaron Glass, Bird by Snow, and Aveva Le Fey. For The Wild is created by Ayana Young, Erica Ekrem, Julia Jackson, Jackson Kroopf, and Evan Tenenbaum.