Autumn: What is love?

adrienne: What is love? {Autumn laughs} What is love? And -

Autumn: Why does it hurt so bad? And why {adrienne laughs} is it so necessary? {laughs}

instrumental music begins, continues over speech

Autumn: I'm Autumn Brown, a wealthy socialite moonlighting as a bike courier from the 1990s, and Real World hopeful, living on Dakota and Inishinaabe land currently known as Minneapolis.

adrienne: And I'm adrienne maree brown, a radical femme aspirational Lin-Manuel Miranda, um, student of miracles, love, emergent strategist and pleasure activist living in the land of the Shakori, Skarore, Tuscarora and Lumbee people known as Durham.

Autumn: This is "How to Survive the End of the World."

adrienne: Our podcast about learning from apocalypse with grace, rigor, and curiosity. And this season, season six!

Autumn: Season six.

adrienne: Season six is our all about love season. We are dedicating this season to our Black feminist new ancestor, bell hooks, the beloved one, and particularly her groundbreaking work all about love: NEW VISIONS. And we are gonna dedicate an entire season to talking about love in this world right now, and how it's deeply tied into why we want to survive, how we survive, and who we survive with.

Autumn: Mm. Get ready for some, um, new segments.

adrienne: Oh yes! {laughter} We have to have new segments for this. So, um, before we hop into new segments, Autumn, it's been a long time. {music stops} I shouldn't have left you without a check-in. {laughs} What's going on, sista?

Autumn: Well

adrienne: Yeah, how are you?

Autumn: I mean, you know how I'm doing.

adrienne: I literally just left your presence. {laughs}.

Autumn: You literally just left my house. My actual house that I live in now. Um, I'm doing really well today. Um, my big fun announcement to, um, our listeners is that I bought a house. And, um -

adrienne: {laughs} A whole house?

Autumn: A whole house. {adrienne laughs} And I am currently recording from my office on the third floor of my whole house. And it's a beautiful, beautiful space. And it is also, um, the first true office that I've ever had. I've worked from home most of my adult life, um, but I've never had an office that wasn't also a bedroom -

adrienne: Wait -

Autumn: - or a living room, or a - adrienne: Oh, wow! A kitchen.

Autumn: - or a corner of something else. {adrienne laughs} Um, so this is like a big upgrade for my life, that I have an actual space that has a door that closes, that's like on a different level of the house than where everything else takes place. Um, and, but, everything about, everything about this house is, like, very magical. Everything about the way that I came into ownership of this house is extremely magical and imbued with magic. Um, and, you know, I have to say, like, when I, when I went through my divorce, as you know -

adrienne: Mm.

Autumn: - I was like, I'm never buying a house again. adrienne: Mm-mm.

Autumn: I was like, I will never, I'm never, meh meh meh, you know, I just had all these feelings associated with, like, having to let go of a house that I, you know, thought I was going to, like, grow and die in.

adrienne: Yeah.

Autumn: And so there's something that's been so, really beautiful about, like, about making the life-affirming choice to say, um, I'm gonna buy this house because I plan to actually be here for at least the next decade of my life. And to feel really at home immediately in the space.

adrienne: Mm.

Autumn: Um, and just, there's been a lot of joy already. Um, a lot of big feelings already, in this space, as you got to witness -

adrienne: Yeah.

Autumn: - a couple of days ago. Um, it, like, the kids are really enjoying the space, I'm really enjoying the space and it really is like, it feels - I can already feel the ways that it's, like, making my life better. {laughs}.

adrienne: Mmmm.

Autumn: So, I'm very happy. I'm very happy today. adrienne: Oh, it is such a gorgeous home.
Autumn: Mmhmm.

adrienne: Mmhmm.

Autumn: Mmhmm. How are you today? You just got home.

adrienne: I just got home from your beautiful home to my beautiful home. And, um, I'm feeling really in tact, you know, like, that's, that, I keep having this like, oh, I can really feel all the parts of myself in my house. And there's, for the first time ever, a lawn care person came today, to completely {Autumn gasp} take care of my lawn -

Autumn: Mmmm.

adrienne: - garden area, like, everything outside. And like - Autumn: Mm!

adrienne: - With no, like he just sh, he was just there. He just, like, I looked out the window and I'm like, oh, you're just handling it. Like, there was no, like, let's pretend like, you know, anything and you need to tell me what to, it was like, {Autumn laughs} he was just like, I can see -

Autumn: He was like, you filled out the intake, so I'll just -

adrienne: He's like, this is bad, and I love it, and I'll take care of the land. Um, so {Autumn laughs} that's really great. My very dear friend, Jen Kidwell, who is an incredible artist, um, of the theater -

Autumn: Mmm.

adrienne: - um, is visiting me with like, {laughs} she showed up yesterday and she's like, I brought you peanut M and Ms. And I was like, that -

Autumn: Yes!

adrienne: - is so kind.

Autumn: That is an act of love. adrienne: {laughs} That's so loving. Autumn: That is loving.

adrienne: So, she's here with me. And yeah, it's spring. This is my first, like, spring in North Carolina. So it's like hot al - I'm like, it was like, cold, and then it's like 80 degrees. Um, so that feels exciting to me. Like -

Autumn: I mean, that's great for you. I was making that face on my own behalf. adrienne: I know that face.

Autumn: It's not -

adrienne: I was like, that face is from your cold house. {laughs} But I {laughter} am warm. Um, and, like, even wearing a sweatshirt inside the warmth, like, I just love being warm. So, those are all the ways -

Autumn: You do love being warm.

adrienne: I'm just a little toasty toast. {laughs}

Autumn: You were like, so cute when you were here, with your, like, I need a, I need a electric blanket {adrienne laughs} to go under me on the air mattress, Autumn. Like -

adrienne: Exactly.

Autumn: - I know.

adrienne: Well, because the air was getting cold. Autumn: The air is cold. Exactly.
adrienne: The air was getting cold -

Autumn: On the cold floor.

adrienne: When I, the second night, with the electric blanket under me and a hot water bottle next to me, like, up under my pajamas {laughs} -

Autumn: Yeah.

adrienne: - I was like, finally, I can, I can rest.

Autumn: Now you're comfortable.

adrienne: Parts of me are kind of sweaty. This is good. Um, so, yeah, {laughing} I'm feeling - Autumn: (00:06:50) I love you.

adrienne: - good, and I'm, I'm like really excited to be back in this space with you. And I'm really excited for the, the season that we have ahead of us. And, like, you know, we have done, we've gone in so many directions with this podcast. And last season felt like a really epic, groundbreaking historical season of interviews.

Autumn: Mmhmmm.

adrienne: And, um, which was awesome. Like, I really loved all the interviews we did. I'm really - Autumn: Absolutely.

adrienne: - proud of what we created there, but I'm all also really excited just, like, kick it with you and get to talk with you about all these things, and see what you, you know, I think over the course of this season, people are gonna be astounded by all the parallels and divergences of love that we know, and -

Autumn: Have experienced.

adrienne: - have experienced in life, you know? Autumn: And I was -

adrienne: I'm really excited to just kick it with you.

Autumn: I was thinking about this too. I'm so excited. And I was thinking about how full circle this moment is for us to be doing a season about love specifically, because one of, you know, for a long time, you and I were like, we would coll - we would, you know, we're doing our work, we're doing our work, we're coming back together and being like, exchange of lessons, exchange of learnings -

adrienne: Yes.

Autumn: - exchange of wisdom. And then we're going back out into the world and doing our work in separate locations. But one of the first projects that you and I conceived of doing together {adrienne laughs} was a book project on radical love -

adrienne: Exactly.

Autumn: - where we were gonna be exploring like, you know, love as we learned it through our parentage, and -

adrienne: Yes.

Autumn: - our family and all those things. So there's something that, to me, seems, even though we never actually made that book -

adrienne: Yeah.

Autumn: - it's like we're gonna make it right now.

adrienne: Exactly. Exactly.

Autumn: You know?

adrienne: Exactly. I really feel that.

Autumn: Yeah.

adrienne: I feel like -

Autumn: Yeah.

adrienne: - there's something about this that feels fated. {laughs} So, I'm really excited. And, um, I have a question which is, should we tell people about our Patreon stuff now?

Autumn: Mm! Yeah. Why not? Let's -

adrienne: Okay.

Autumn: Let's do a little, a little shameless self-promotion.

adrienne: Yeah, well, we're learning about all this Patreon stuff, but like, so we have a Patreon, it's really sweet. We really appreciate all the people who are already members of it. And we find,

like all those people were just operating on faith, {laughing} basically, they're just like, I love y'all, here's something without anything in return. And finally we got it together -

Autumn: For years.

adrienne: - and now we have stuff for them, for y'all. So, the, we are inviting people to become patrons of us, become patrons of this season. Um, it really supports us to cover the cost of what we're doing.

Autumn: Yeah.

adrienne: And that invitation now comes with beautiful merch. Um, we have a t-shirt we have a tote bag -

Autumn: Mmhmm.

adrienne: - we have a mug -

Autumn: Mmhmm.

adrienne: - we have a poster, and we have a gift certificate to Fat and the Moon -

Autumn: Right.

adrienne: - discount code.

Autumn: Right.

adrienne: Um, who, they all, they make the best-smelling, yummy, natural, delightful bath and body things.

Autumn: Right. And we have a lot of different, like, artists involved in the - adrienne: Yeah, creating all of that.

Autumn: - design of our merch. So the mug is, um, a design that we commissioned from an artist named Hannah Chalew, and the t-shirt, and, um, the tote bag design came from Bianca Ibarluca, who also designed the, um, uh, syllabus that was created by an academic based on our work a few years ago, i f people remember that beautiful syllabus that went out, that was like, based on the show. Um, and then of course we have the poster that was designed by adrienne maree brown.

adrienne: Me! I drew it.

Autumn: Um, yeah. So it's like, for those of you who are already patrons, if you haven't had a chance to go over and, like, make sure that you're signed up in a tier where you're actually going to receive merch, that's an important step to take.

adrienne: Okay.

Autumn: Um, but if you are not a patron, now is a good time to go over there, check it out, and pick a level that you can sign up at. And then any level that you sign up on, you get access to this other special thing that we started doing this year called ask us anything episodes -

adrienne: Mm.

Autumn: - where we field a bunch of questions from our patrons. And then we record a special session, just the two of us answering those questions, and then drop it just to patrons. So, there's also, like, patron-only content -

adrienne: Mm.

Autumn: - that is gonna be coming out throughout the year. Some of it is those ask us
anythings. We'll probably also drop some special event content to patrons only. Um, so yeah, it's like, it's new for us to be doing this, and we're also so excited to be at a point in the life of the show where we actually have capacity and stability enough to be able to do this. So, that is great. {laughter}.

adrienne: We grown, ok?

Autumn: We grown, we grown.

adrienne: We making it on our own, okay?

Autumn: Mmhmm, mmhmm, mmhmm, mmhmm.

adrienne: Yeah, so, {Autumn laughs} we, we, we have a new segment.

Autumn: Yeah.

adrienne: And I think, like, if I was to describe this, the sound of this segment, it would be like the flume of {music plays, reverb is added} awe! Like that.

Autumn: Yes!

Adrienne: How would you describe it? {laughs}

Autumn: I would, I would describe it with these sounds. {gasps repeatedly, with reverb}

adrienne: {laughs} Wow. Great. So, yeah, so, we, last seasons, you know, we've given you the flume of rage and we really spent some time digging deep into what was enraging to us. And there's so much -

Autumn: Plumbing the depths of our anger.

adrienne: We plumbed it. But, now, with this season, because our focus is really about love, we wanted to give ourselves room for awe, to really notice that even in spite of everything out there that is hard and difficult and sad and, {laughs} you know, despairing and grief-filled, there are still these moments of awe. There are still these moments of wonder and joy and pleasure.

"Flume of Awe" theme plays, continues over speech

adrienne: And we wanted a chance to uplift those and share those and to share what's really inspiring and exciting us right now. So -

Autumn: Mmhmm.

adrienne: - we're, this is gonna be our first flume of awe.

Autumn: The flume of awe. So, going forward, we'll be asking each other, what is something that is giving you joy, pleasure, and/or other feelings of awe?

adrienne:: Mmhmm.

Autumn: And adrienne, do you wanna go first, with your flume of awe? {music stops}

adrienne: In general, folks know that I have a soft place, a joyful place in my heart for direct action. Like, I, I just feel like it moves me every time I see humans willing to put their time, energy, and bodies in front of what they care about, right? And just like, this is something that really matters to me. And recently, a ton of scientists around the world took a direct action where they went out of their buildings, locked themselves to their buildings, locked themselves to the front doors, to lock down the places where they were working in order to make a statement about the level of climate crisis we're in.

Autumn: Wow.

adrienne: And the climate crisis is a place of despair for me, but all the actions I see humans taking, humans who may not see themselves as warriors in the struggle, but, like, something has moved them to this point. So, like, the video, the first video that I saw was this NASA scientist who was doing it. He was, he had chained himself to the front of his building, and he was crying as he took this action. Like it was so -

Autumn: Wow.

adrienne: - tied into his heart. And what I felt when I was watching it was that awe, that I'm like, I don't know this person, I don't know any of these people, but the feeling I have in my heart for this world, they have that feeling in their hearts.

Autumn: Yeahhhh!

adrienne: And, you know, I felt like as an earthling, I could feel the, the way the earth receives the love of that action.

Clips plays.
Dialogue: And it's gotta stop. We're gonna lose everything. And we're not joking. We're not lying, we're not exaggerating. This is so bad, everyone, um, that we're willing to take this risk, and more and more scientists and more and more people are gonna start joining us. This is for all of the kids of the world, all of the young people, all of the future people, {cheering and applause begin} this is so much bigger than any of us.

adrienne: It's the same energy I felt during Standing Rock. It's the energy I feel about the activists who are holding down the mountains in Hawaii.

Autumn: Mmm.

adrienne: I feel this way, where I'm just like, oh, like, there's so many of us still loving and fighting -

Autumn: Yes.

adrienne: - for this place -

Autumn: Yes.

adrienne: - and that fills me with awe.

Autumn: Ohhhhh, I love that!

adrienne: Yeah.

Autumn: I didn't know that that was happening cause I'm like -

adrienne: Well -

Autumn: - offline.

adrienne: - so much other stuff happened that day. And that's how things go these days, right? It's like -

Autumn: Right.

adrienne: - it's hard to bring enough attention. It's like, oh, wait, there was a random shooter. This is that, that, you know, and it's like, but also this happened, and it was meaningful. Um -

Autumn: Yeah.

adrienne: - um, and so I wanna know about for you, what is something for you that's given -

Autumn: Ok, so -

adrienne: - joy, pleasure, feelings of awe?

Autumn: So this is something that's giving me a feeling of awe and has to do with how awe, how we experience awe.

adrienne: Oooh!

Autumn: So this is something that my therapist literally just told me today. That -

adrienne: Go therapist.

Autumn: - when we hold our breath, we can temporarily see and hear better.

adrienne: What?

Autumn: And that applies to both the experience of being startled and afraid, like, the, {gasp} -

Adrienne: Yeah.

Autumn: - you know, like -

adrienne: Yeah.

Autumn: - your body then can temporarily see and hear better so that you can, like, locate yourself and locate the thing that has startled you, and figure out, like, temporarily your senses are heightened, so that you can figure out whether you're in danger.

adrienne: Ooooh.

Autumn: But it also relates to experiencing awe. So if you see something that is, like, {gasps} beautiful -

adrienne: Ooooh.

Autumn: - then your senses autom, like, briefly will heighten so you can take in more of the information of that {adrienne laughs} awe that, aweomeness.

adrienne: That's ama - good design!

Autumn: How fucking cool is that? {laughs}

adrienne: Pretty fucking cool. Like, that's amazing. I love stuff like that. I just love -

Autumn: That's like -

adrienne: - stuff like that.

Autumn: - way to go, human body. And I love also, {adrienne laughs} I love the fact that like the same, it's like the same function serves both {laughter} sensations.

adrienne: Are you terrified? {laughs}.

Autumn: Are you terrified?

adrienne: Is it wonder?

Autumn: Are you -

adrienne: You need to see it.

Autumn: - filled with awe? {laughs} Exactly! Better hear it.

adrienne: You need this. You better hear this.

Autumn: You need to hear this, girl, you need to hear this.

adrienne: Wow, that's incredible. I love it. It feels tied into the fact that when you lose a sense, another one heightens, too -

Autumn: Mmhmm.

adrienne: - like there's just these ways of balance in the body. I love that, thank you. Um -

Autumn: Yeah, so cool. Thank you, therapist. You are amazing.

adrienne: - and thank you everyone for coming to our flume of awe.

Autumn: Mmhm.

adrienne: So, {laughs, sighs with a giggle}.

theme music plays, continues over speech

adrienne: Well, you know, there's one other thing I meant, I think I was gonna say in my check-in and I may have said it before, {music stops} but I feel like I'm gonna say it every single episode, which is also, I was commissioned for a musical, and that gives me feelings of awe. It's also my check-in. {Autumn clears throat}.

Autumn: I was commissioned for a musical. {laughs}

adrienne: I was commissioned for a musical. Um, it's, it's, it's, really, like, you know, there's moments in your life when you're like, I'm on the threshold of something that feels like it's really big for me, it feels like it's really, like, opening my heart to new possibilities. And it's also the unknown -

Autumn: Yes.

adrienne: - and I'm really geeking out about it, cause I'm like, I don't know how to do this at all. Like, it's so thrilling.

Autumn: You about to learn, girl!

adrienne: I'm about to learn. And I just, I keep, {Autumn laughs} I have a lot of people in my life who do have insight and -

Autumn: Right.

adrienne: - and I 'm getting all these little sweet seeds of offers and inspirations and like, you know, Toshi of course sat down and talked with me and like, you know, just being like, how do I musical? You know? And it's just like, I need to know everything. {Autumn laughs} And it's so exciting.

Autumn: And now, now you also have the guidebook of the TV show, High School Musical: The Musical, The Series.

adrienne: Well, we're gonna get to that, because that is my pop cultural -

Autumn: That’s, sorry, sorry, top culture.

adrienne: - right?

Autumn: Okay

adrienne: Yes, no, but we're gonna dive deep, deep. Okay?

Autumn: {laughter} We gonna dive deep.

adrienne: So -

Autumn: I'm so excited for you.

adrienne: Yeah.

Autumn: I'm so excited for you {adrienne laughs} and I'm so excited for, like, of course the supports that you're gonna call in around -

adrienne: Yeah.

Autumn: - how this is done, and also so excited for the way you're gonna do it.

adrienne: Yeah, cause I'm just like, I, even calling it a musical is, it's bending the reality of what it is, cause I'm like, it's like a musical ritual immersive experience?

Autumn: Of course.

adrienne: Like it's, you know, it's I, it's basically the dream in my head of what humans are doing whenever we're together. So {laughs} I'm really excited. Um, but it fills me with awe. So -

Autumn: Yes, yes, yes, yes yes.

adrienne: {sighs} So here we are, sister.

Autumn: {clears throat} Can I introduce -

adrienne: - the [WORD UNCLEAR] our topic.

Autumn: - the primary?

adrienne: I really need you to bring the theme in.

Autumn: Here's what the theme is. {singing} What is love? Baby, don't hurt me, don't hurt me no more. What is love?

adrienne: Uh!

Autumn: That's the theme of our conversation today. {adrienne laughs} What is love?

adrienne: What is love? What is love? {Autumn laughs} And -

Autumn: Why does it hurt so bad? And {adrienne laughs} why is it so necessary? {laughs}

adrienne: Oh, I love this. Well, and I wanna know, like, for you, like, when you walk around in the world and you love things, like what is love to you? How do -

Autumn: Ah.
adrienne: - you define it?

Autumn: Yeah. And I was actually just, um, I was actually just talking with my aikido teacher about this a few months ago -

adrienne: Gaylen! [?].

Autumn: - because - Gaylen. Um, because I was, like, describing how, the feeling that I feel when I'm on the mat, and my energetic field meets the energetic field of another person that I'm practicing with.

adrienne: Uh-huh.

Autumn: And, like, the only thing that's happening is like, I mean physically, the only thing that's happening is like the two of us are trying to work out the technique together.

adrienne: That's right.

Autumn: But in, in, in the moment of our energetic fields meeting, there is something that's so profound and indescribable.

adrienne: Mm.

Autumn: And to me it often feels like love, or it feels like the thing that I would say is like the, that experienced, um, like, aliveness sense that you have when you're in someone else's presence. And it's been interesting to experience it, like, in my dojo -

adrienne: Yes!

Autumn: - as with a bunch of people who most of whom I only know in that context, right? adrienne: That's right, yeah.

Autumn: And in some ways it, like, makes whatever feelings I'm having towards other people in the room, it's even more, uh, precise because of the fact that I have, the, only the dojo as the context for the relationship.

adrienne: Yeah.

Autumn: And so I'm not, I don't, there's, there's less and less and less that I can project onto the people, cause it's just like, I'm a body, you're a body, we're figuring this out together.

adrienne: Mmm.

Autumn: Um, but if I, I can kind of extrapolate that experience as like a, there's, like, this to then, then if I take it closer to home that I'm, like, thinking about last night, you know, sitting on the couch with Mairead and watching an episode of High School Musical: The Musical: The Series.

adrienne: Mmm.

Autumn: And then just, like, looking over at Mairead looks over at me and we just look at each other and smile and then like, and Mairead takes my hand, and then we just turn back to the screen.

adrienne: Yeah.

Autumn: And there's something in that, like, exchange -

adrienne: Yeah.

Autumn: - of affection that is, requires absolutely nothing verbal -

adrienne: Yes. {Autumn laughs}.

Autumn: - for us to both be deeply understanding that the thing that we're feeling is love for one another.

adrienne: Yes. Autumn: You know - adrienne: Mmm.

Autumn: - I think that one of the things that makes love so unique is how difficult to verbalize it is, you know?

adrienne: Yeah.

Autumn: And how most of the ways that we experience or know that we love someone are things that, you know, it's like why most poetry and song is about love, because we're always struggling to find the word for, the words to describe -

adrienne: That's right.

Autumn: - what the feeling is.

adrienne: That's right.

Autumn: Um, yeah. What about you? Like, what do you, how do you, like -

adrienne: Mmhmm.

Autumn: - try to say what love is?

adrienne: So I, there's, you know, in the reading of all about love from bell hooks, she has this definition that I have, I fell in love with, {laughs} um, which is an echo of the work of Erich Fromm, and it's defining love as the will to extend one's self for the purpose of nurturing one's own or another's spiritual growth. And -

Autumn: Mm, mm.

adrienne: - when I think of love as the action, right? Rather than, like, a state of being, or a vat you can fall into, it's like the act of loving is really that, like, I'm extending towards your spiritual growth, and I'm nurturing my own, and, and all of that's happening concurrently. So -

Autumn: Mmhmm.

adrienne: - mostly that, but then also I think about my nibblings, I think about when I got to hold you as a little baby, you know? Where -

Autumn: Mm!

adrienne: - I wasn't thinking about growth, I didn't have a framework, and, and babies -

Autumn: Right.

adrienne: - don't have a framework of growth. And I love that you brought up sitting on the couch with Mairead cause, cause you know, last week I was sitting on the couch, surrounded by all three of your children, you know, and they all were, they needed to be in touch with me, so, like, Finn's, Finn was like reaching over Mairead to have a hand on my shoulder.

Autumn: Mmhmm.

adrienne: Siobhan had her feet tucked under my leg and Mairead was, like, tucked up under my arm.

Autumn: Mmhmm.

adrienne: And we just had these moments of just, like, sitting there smiling, beaming at each other. And I know that from me, there's that pouring of spiritual growth energy, but from them, there's just like, I love being in your presence, this is the best -

Autumn: Mmhmm!

adrienne: - thing, you know? I never doubt that when I'm with them, that they're just like, this is just great, like, just being with you. And when I think about every experience I've had of love in my life, whether it's parental, familial, friend, communal, you know, all of that, it always has that essence to it, that's just like, this is what life is about, being here with you.

Autumn: Mmm.

adrienne: This is, this is it. And -

Autumn: Essence.

adrienne: - you know, those feelings, sustained through, kind of, of things that are really, really difficult when it's like, life is hard, but, because we have this love, it's, it comes up under what's hard, and makes it possible to keep moving forward, right?

Autumn: Mmhmmm.

adrienne: Um, and I wanna offer two quotes from bell hooks' book, um, also. So, "To love well is the task in all meaningful relationships, not just romantic bonds."

Autumn: Mmhmm!

adrienne: Right? So I love this, love as an action. Love -

Autumn: Yeah.

adrienne: - as something that we are trying to get great at. Um, and then to tie it into why we, as the hosts of "How to Survive the End of the World," would talk about love for an entire season, I wanna offer this quote from bell hooks, which is "Only love can heal the wounds of the past. However, the intensity of our woundedness often leads to a closing of the heart, making it impossible for us to give or receive the love that is given to us."

Autumn: Mm.

adrienne: So when I think about how we're in a situation where we even need to survive, it's because there are these deep wounds. Wounds that have come between us as a species. Wounds that have become systemic, wounds that have become structural, wounds that are keeping us from a sense of deep belonging -

Autumn: Right.

adrienne: - to each other, right? Keeping us from being able to feel ourselves in tact in relationship with others. And -

Autumn: Mmm.

adrienne: - if only love can heal the wounds from the past, then we have to find ways to make it possible to open our hearts again.

Autumn: Yes.

adrienne: And let, let that in. And , you know, there's that Japanese practice of healing things with gold. {laughing}.

Autumn: I have literally, I have a ceramicist who is doing that for me right now with a -

adrienne: Yes.

Autumn: - pot, right? So - kin, kintsugi.

adrienne: Kintsugi. So my friend Ian, um, in Detroit, did that for me with a few items last year. Autumn: Mmhmm.

adrienne: And I remember thinking like, oh, when I say healing, this is a little bit of what I mean, is like -

Autumn: Yes.

adrienne: - there's some gold in the universe, and I'm not the gold, but I will help it find its way into these gaps, {laughs} you know? Um, and I wanna think about that with this season, that part of what we're doing is figuring out, like, where are the wounds -

Autumn: Mmm.

adrienne: - that we're trying to survive, and how can love be the medicine?

Autumn: Yeah. I was, I was just trying to find there's this beautiful quote from Resmaa Menakem that I was trying to find -

adrienne: Mm!

Autumn: - about, about the thing that you were just describing, how, like, that, that unhealed wound, over time, becomes like a person in someone.

adrienne: Yes.

Autumn: And then over time becomes culture, right?

adrienne: Yes, yes, {Autumn laughs} exactly.

Autumn: Like, the things that we think of as culture often are, like, rooted in de, like, generations-old unhealed wounds.

adrienne: Exactly.

Autumn: Um, that we -

adrienne: And people really think of themselves as, like, broken.

Autumn: Right! And they think of their communities and cultures as broken.

adrienne: Yeah.

Autumn: But we also know, I mean, well, I think we believe, you and I believe, and many of us believe -

adrienne: Yeah.

Autumn: - that we have the medicine for those wounds, but it's like, what is the thing that makes it medicine? It's that, it's choosing to apply it -

adrienne: That's right.

Autumn: Right?

adrienne: That's right.

Autumn: It's choosing to actually use it -

adrienne: Yes.

Autumn: - as medicine rather than just, um, experience it or expect that it's going to be experienced.

adrienne: Yes. And that's why, that's part of why I love this definition that bell hooks, you know, uplifted, because it's like, okay, so, it, we need to extend that, right? We need to find a way to open, soften, and be generous in this moment. That's actually the most important thing.We've been told, we've been given a narrative of scarcity that keeps us divided from each other, and wounding each other, and staying in those places where we're like, I don't even think I can love, or I don't even know how to be a different way. And it's like, actually, there's a will that we can cultivate to extend ourselves towards nurturing -

Autumn: Mmhmm.

adrienne: - towards nurturing our highest selves, towards nurturing our loving selves, you know, as we are, and nurturing each other. And I think this is a time where we need to be moving from scarcity to generosity, and where we need to be moving from the idea of being individuals to the idea of being one. Right?

Autumn: Right.

adrienne: One whole being. Um -

Autumn: Right.

adrienne: - Michaela Harrison has been doing this whale song, whale whispering work. And the main message she's gathered from the whales is we are one, right?

Autumn: Mmm!

adrienne: Which I find so loving, because it's like, oh, like, when I offer love to anything else, I'm offering love back to myself as well. Like it's, it's a total act, you know -

Autumn: Yeah.

adrienne: - like there's, there's not even inward outward. It's just like, it's all so interconnected.

Autumn: Yeah.

adrienne: And I, that thrills me.

Autumn: And it, the, I mean, not to make it all about science, but the science backs that one up -

adrienne: Yes!

Autumn: - you know what I mean? Like, um, neuroscience backs it up, physical science backs it up, that, like the more that we experience and enact love -

adrienne: Yes. {Autumn laughs}.

Autumn: - the more that we are experiencing it internally, you know?

adrienne: That's right.

Autumn: So, um, it's one of those places where all of the ways that we know things align around this one.

adrienne: That's right. That's right.

Autumn and adrienne: So -

adrienne: - I thought we could, you know, we've mapped out a season and what we cover may or may not fall as neatly as this map, you know, like, we, we may get lost along the way, there may be moments where we're like, wait, we've gotta climb up to that ledge and see what's up there. Um, so it's like a suggestive map through an adventurous territory, but we wanted to share with you all some of the things we're imagining exploring over the course of this season that we're excited to get into. And I thought we could just sort of take turns, going back and forth with what we have so far as ideas. So, one thing we really wanna explore is what it means to love ourselves as we are. Right? Um, and I think of my teacher spenta kandawala, you know, she was the first person to say to me, like, nothing to fix. Right?

Autumn: Mmhmm.

adrienne: There's nothing to fix with you. There's nothing that is, like, fundamentally broken in you. It's just, how can you sort of be with everything that has shaped you to be as you are, and then from that place act towards you yourself? You know, like how, where do you wanna go?

Autumn: Mm.

adrienne: So I, there's a self acceptance that is at the heart of this kind of love. It's like, I am who I am, and I can't be ashamed of the things that shaped me to be who I am. That, that's, that's the particular basket of life that I was given to work with, right? If it's, if that's the show - what's that show, {laughs} um, um, ooh - Chopped. Right? {laughter} Where it’s like, here's your -

Autumn: Random ingredients -

adrienne: - ingredients -

Autumn: - that include a package of ham and a bottle of prosecco.

adrienne: Exactly, right? {Autumn laughs} And some Fruity Pebbles -

Autumn: And I'm supposed to make dessert.

adrienne: - make a dessert. {laughter} Right? So it's kind of, of like, life is like, you're Chopped, right? It's just sort of like -

Autumn: Yeah.

adrienne: - you were given, you know, excellent parenting, or less excellent parenting, poverty, wealth, you were given a race, you were given all these cultural artifacts, or none of them, you were given songs -

Autumn: Right.

adrienne: - spirit, practice, you were given trauma, you were given privilege, you were given these things, and here you go. And, what are you going to, how are you going from this to make the beautiful meal of your life? How are you going to make something not just edible, okay? {laughs} How are you gonna make something delicious and incredible? And part of that is our bodies, part of that is our minds, part of that is our spirits. So, we are both now getting into those ages where it's like, oh, the body really starts to change, and you can think of it as deterioration. Um, I'm really not feeling it that way. I'm just sort of like, oh, my body is changing, and I have to be much more mindful to shape those changes -

Autumn: Yeah.

adrienne: - and partner with my body, and love my body, as ,you know, like, I'm like, we're not going backwards, right? This body that is 43 will never be 23 again.

Autumn: Right.

adrienne: This body is 43, and what is the, the, the most loving way I can be 43 - Autumn: Mmhmm.

adrienne: - right?

Autumn: Yeah.

adrienne: And for me -

Autumn: And, you know, and what do I want 63 to look like?

adrienne: - it's a ton of swimming - what do I want 63 to look like? You know, I'd like to get to 83, 103, 203. So, you know, how are we - yeah, you know, just it's me, right?

Autumn: In cryo.

adrienne: But, so, I really wanna talk about {Autumn laughs} I'm like, I'm laying here frozen, but I'm healthy as fuck.

Autumn: But I'm healthy! {laughter}.

adrienne: But I'm, but I want us to talk in, you know, when, get there, about the health practice we're engaging in and -

Autumn: Mmhmm.

adrienne: - what has shifted with those. I also want us to talk there about mental health, and what it means to, like, stop battling the, the mind, and really be like, okay, this is what my mind does, and how do I be with that? How can I love that?

Autumn: Mmm.

adrienne: So that's gonna be one episode that we're gonna -

Autumn: Beautiful.

adrienne: - dive into.

Autumn: Beautiful.

adrienne: Yep.

Autumn: It's gonna be fucking awesome. Might end up being more than one episode, let's be real.

adrienne: I was just thinking that. {laughs} I was like, there’ll be at least one.

Autumn: We also wanna do again, at least one, if not more episodes on divine love. adrienne: Mmmhmm.

Autumn: And, um, we are really interested in both how we experience the sacred, and also what some of our sacred texts have to say about love.

adrienne: Yeah.

Autumn: Um, because, um, I mean, one of the things that I love about various sacred traditions is that, um, a lot of the religious and spiritual traditions that we've inherited have a lot to say about how love is experience different forms of love and how we can cultivate different forms of love in our lives.

adrienne: Yeah.

Autumn: Um, and how we can experience divine love versus other types of love. Um, so we're gonna have some really interesting ground to explore there. Um, and hopefully we'll also be able to get a little bit into how some of our religious and spiritual spaces that we inhabit, like churches, synagogues, um, mosques, um, covens, you know, {laughter} all of the different ways -

adrienne: Yes!

Autumn: - that we talk about, like, what are the spiritual spa? hat are the spaces that we claim for our practice? How we can cultivate love in those spaces, but also how some of those spaces can confuse our experiences of love -

adrienne: Mmm.

Autumn: - or suppress our experiences of love, or judge them.

adrienne: Mmm.

Autumn: Um, you know, so we'll be getting into some, you know, some interesting territory, both, um, I think leveraging our religious and spiritual traditions as a way of understanding love -

adrienne: Mmhmm.

Autumn: - and thinking about how love has been understood historically and how it's understood now, because even how we understand romantic love for instance has changed a lot in the last century. Um -

adrienne: Mmhmm.

Autumn: - but also think about how having a spiritual life can really shape how, um, open or not open to love we are.

adrienne: I love that.
Autumn: Yeah.
adrienne: {laughs} Um, so then we wanna get into falling in love, right? Autumn: Mmm.
adrienne: What -
Autumn: One of my favorite things.

adrienne: One of my very favorite things. {Autumn laughs} We love to fall in love here. Um, and I want us to talk both about falling in love in the romantic context, but also like that falling in love with a new friend, falling in love with a new comrade, like, falling in love, that act of being like holy wow. So you just out here existing and I didn't even know, and now, like -

Autumn: Mmhmm!
adrienne: - right? Or falling in love with someone where you're like, I've known you - Autumn: I've known you for -
adrienne: - and I didn't even realize.
Autumn: - seven lifetimes.
adrienne: Exactly.
Autumn: Oh, you mean like I knew you, like {adrienne laughs} -

adrienne: I'm like, no, like, I knew you {Autumn laughs} and then something shifted, right? Um, and I especially wanna talk because we're grown folks business over here, that, you know, the first time you fall in love, for many people, when we're really young, teenagers, maybe early twenties, that first big falling in love experience is one thing. But after your first big heartbreak, the continued possibility of falling in love, the continued practice of falling in love -

Autumn: Mmm. adrienne: - it changes.

Autumn: Yes.

adrienne: And I want us to really talk about that, and what it means to, you know, I think more and more over time, learn to be yourself while in the practice of falling in love. Right?

Autumn: Mmhmm.

adrienne: Um, so we're gonna spend some time there, and I'd love to have some science in that. Like, what is the science of falling in love, what's happening in the body?

Autumn: Mm!

adrienne: What's happening to the brain?

Autumn: Oh yeah.

adrienne: What's the chemical reaction, {laughing} you know? What's happening. So -

Autumn: Well, we'll talk -

adrienne: - we're gonna fall in love.

Autumn: - we're gonna talk to science. We're gonna talk to science.

adrienne: Talk to science about, a little bit of science in there.

Autumn: And then we're gonna talk about sustaining love. Um -

adrienne: Mmhmm.

Autumn: - and we're gonna get into a little bit of some, uh, toolboxes, like a toolbox approach to -

Adrienne: Yeah.

Autumn: - what we have found in our lives {adrienne laughs} as like ways that you can actually sustain love in your life. And that doesn't just mean sustaining romantic love -

adrienne: Mmhmm.

Autumn: - but sustaining the experience of love in spite of hardship, or in relationship to hardship. Um, so we're gonna talk about the role of therapy. We're gonna talk about -

adrienne: {singing} Hallelujah! Mmhmm.

Autumn: - we're gonna talk about - exactly. We're gonna talk about {adrienne laughs} the role of friends. Um, and -

adrienne: Mm.

Autumn: - I would love for us to, you know, again, we'll see, we'll see how many episodes we've got in us, {adrienne laughs} but I would love to have a whole episode just about like friendship love, because it's like -

adrienne: Me too! Let's do it.

Autumn: - this whole own type of love. Um - adrienne: Me too.

Autumn: - but we're gonna talk about boundaries. We're gonna talk about adapting and transforming in relationship with others and how, like, what are the conditions that make it possible to change and grow together? And what are the conditions that make it really hard? Um, we're gonna talk about some of the lessons that we've learned from, like, the work that we've been doing, trying to figure out how to get the love that we want in our lives -

adrienne: That's right.

Autumn: - and how to call in the kind of love that we want to be experiencing and practicing.

adrienne: Mmm.

Autumn: Um, and also how to be, you know, in, um, how to be able to, like, be in the present with the people who, like, and loving the people who are actually here in our lives -

adrienne: That's right.

Autumn: - you know, rather than staying out in the, in some fantasy of, like ,who we're supposed to be with -

adrienne: That's right.
Autumn: - or who we're supposed to be surrounded by.

adrienne: That's right. And, you know, I imagine that, like many other people, this is an, this is a really interesting transition moment of, like, how do we let go of what we've been given as the, um, the meta narrative of what sustaining love needs, which is just like, take it, you know? {Autumn laughs} You just, no matter what, you just - right?

Autumn: Escalate it, escalate it, escalate it!

adrienne: Constantly be escalating while constantly be staying while constantly be compromising. You know, that's the love -

Autumn: Yeah.

adrienne: - practices that I think we grow, you know, when I look at like a lot of the love that I witnessed growing up, it was like, yeah, you just stick it out. And I think that's changing a lot right out.

Autumn: Yeah.

adrienne: It's like, wait, we could have all kinds of formations in order to help love thrive. So -

Autumn: Right.

adrienne: So there's that, and then, you know, we are parts of movements, and our movements really, I think, are meant to be acts of love for the world, right.

Autumn: Right.

adrienne: It's meant to be, we see a place where there's a wound and we're gonna bring love to that, we're gonna work collectively to transform this wound into a place of freedom and liberation, which means loving at the collective level. But we can see that we've been really stumbling and falling all over ourselves in this, like, we're really struggling with, like -

Autumn: Yes we are. {laughs}.

adrienne: - how do we love people if we think they made a mistake? How do we love formations that we might politically disagree with? How do we love within our formations when we're really in a battle? And, you know -

Autumn: How do we fight for the freedom of people that we don't like? {laughs}. adrienne: (00:41:05) OK, how? Wow do we love those we don't like, right? And like - Autumn: Yes!

adrienne: - then there's this act, what I call loving corrections. And I really do think I'm about to do a book called {laughs} Loving Corrections. Um, but how do we call each other -

Autumn: That's a good one.

adrienne: - up to our highest values in movement spaces, and break the cycle of, like, how do I punish you and push you down as far as I can into the mud? It's like, no, like, how do I love you, and love us, and let you love me towards, towards our highest recognition and realization of what we can be?

Autumn: Mmhmm.

adrienne: And I think that's what movement's supposed to be. Um, but I also think we'll probably spend some time there in, like, boundaries. Like how do we practice love in movements and still have integrity?

Autumn: Mmhmm.

adrienne: And I, at this point I'm calling it the Hemphill method and not just the quote of {laughs} Prentis Hemphill.

Autumn: For, right, yes yes.

adrienne: So, the Hemphill method is {laughs} like, how do you practice boundaries, um, that are that ,help you set the distance at which you can love others and yourself simultaneously?

Autumn: Mmhmm.

adrienne: Um, so Prentis Hemphill, the, the Black Buddha of our times, um, is offering so much wisdom around boundaries, but we're gonna probably spend some time there, because I think in our movements, our inability to set boundaries means that often by the time we are trying to set them, it's in, like, a crisis mode. And -

Autumn: Yeah.

adrienne: - it's like trying to set dynamite and create a moat and, like, all kinds of stuff that's like, oof. {Autumn laughs} Love would not act that way. So -

Autumn: Literal dynamite.

adrienne: Yeah. {Autumn laughs} Related - tell us about the next one, cause I think it's very related.

Autumn: Uh, it is very related. So, um, what does it look like to do work that we love? You know, how do - first, how do we find the work that we love?

adrienne: Mmhmm.

Autumn: And then how do we give ourselves permission to do exactly the work that we love, you know -

Adrienne: And that loves us, yeah.

Autumn: And that loves us. And, you know, you and I have both been on quite the journey in our lives as adults around coming to understand what it is that we actually love to do -

adrienne: Yeah.

Autumn: - and then positioning ourselves to be able to do that work.

adrienne: Yup.

Autumn: Um, and, um -

adrienne: Hashtag blessed.

Autumn: Hashtag blessed. And, and, you know, having to navigate some of the, some of that discernment. I know that both of us have done around like, well, what are the things that I'm called to do? What are the things that I'm really good at doing?

adrienne: That's right.

Autumn: What are the things that I was trained to do -

adrienne: Mmm.

Autumn: - versus what are the things that I actually love to spend my energy on? You know, {adrienne laughs} even if I'm -

adrienne: Mmhmm.

Autumn: - neither good at them nor trained to do them.

adrienne: Exactly. {laughter}.

Autumn: So, we're gonna talk about that. Like, about the journey towards, like, being, having a, a feeling of, I love what I do.

adrienne: That's right. Which, you know, I think is so core to feeling like you love your life, right?

Autumn: Mmmhmm.

adrienne: That I'm like, if you spend your life doing things you love, it's really hard to love that life. {laughs} So -

Autumn: For real.

adrienne: Um, so then, you know, every single episode, we spend a little time in pop culture, top culture, cultural space, but we also wanted to spend some time in like, how do we build a culture that we love? What are the things in our culture current that we love that, and, and maybe why? So I wanna do, you know, in that space, some deep dives into, like, what are these things that capture our collective cultural attention, and why do they capture that attention? And how does that relate to our liberation path? Cause I think a lot of times, it's places where we see people taking big risks, it's it's places where we see people loving themselves out loud. You know, I'm like we live in the age of Lizzo. We live in the age of Star Trek: Discovery. We live in the age of things that are like, wow, like, {Autumn laughs} this feels like such a love offering, you know? So I want us to say -

Autumn: We live in the age of Bridgerton

adrienne: Oh, ah! {Autumn laughs} We're gonna talk about that, right?

Autumn: Yeah.

adrienne: OK.

Autumn: It's in top culture.

adrienne: I was like, Bridgerton. So, we're gonna spend some time on the culture that we love.

Autumn: We're also gonna spend some time on family.

adrienne: Mm.

Autumn: Um -

adrienne: Mm mm mm mm

Autumn: - and how we, um, experience love within the context of family, or don't.
adrienne: Mmhmm.

Autumn: We're gonna talk about family shaping as, you know, the, you know, the earliest locations in which we come to understand for, what love means, or how we're shaped to understand what love is and what love looks like. And some of the, um, you know, some of us, um, learn really healthy shapes, {adrienne laughs} and a lot of us learn really maladaptive shapes for what love is supposed to do for us and how we're supposed to experience love.

adrienne: Mmhmm.

Autumn: Um, and I think a lot of what we are gonna focus on is what does it look like to practice loving our families as adults?

adrienne: That's right.

Autumn: And -

adrienne: Yeah.

Autumn: - you know, we have developed some practices with our immediate family -

adrienne: Yes.

Autumn: - our group as sisters, and our immediate family, including our parents -

adrienne: Yeah.

Autumn: - that have helped us stay in loving relationship with each other. And so we're gonna be talking about some of those practices in depth.

adrienne: Yes

Autumn: Um, and also -

adrienne: I'm so excited about that.

Autumn: - what we've heard from other families who've learned, like, how do you love each other, um, as adults? How do you continue choosing each other as adults once, especially once you've reached a point where you no longer necessarily have to choose each other?

adrienne: That's right. I'm really, yeah. Like I think that's gonna be one of my favorite places, cause I'm, I'm both so overjoyed by what we are practicing right now as a family, like, how it feels to be in our family right now, feels like the result of a lot of intentional choices to extend love and extend towards each other's -

Autumn: Mmhmm.

adrienne: - nurtured spiritual growth, you know? {laughs} So I'm like, we're rocking it. Um, and then finally, although it might not be the final thing, but finally, as a topic we wanna explore, is loving at the level of species.

Autumn: Mmm.

adrienne: So, which to me includes, like, how do we think as a species, right? Of like, how are we nurturing the whole, how are we nurturing each other, and nurturing the planet that is our, our home, right?

Autumn: Mmhmm.

adrienne: As a species! It's like falling in love with this place and thinking of it as a, as one place to protect feels so important. How do we do that? How do we let go of all the borders and territorial thinking that keeps us from understanding that we are one species, one being, one interconnected body? Um, and in this, I think we also have to talk about what it means to love the future -

Autumn: Mm!

adrienne: - right? Like, not just to have ambitions for our own individual futures, but to actually have a sense of like, I feel in love with the possibility of the future.

Autumn: Mmhmm.

adrienne: I, I see something other than just a dystopian slog of horrific things -

Autumn: Right.

adrienne: - I see something actually -

Autumn: And -

adrienne: - really beautiful out there ahead of us. And I wanna -

Autumn: Yeah, and to like love future generations enough to fight for a future that they have, that they deserve to live in. {laughs}.

adrienne: Yes. Yeah. And you know, I think it's like, it's something that I hear so often in people who become parents, where it's like, oh, m everything has changed. Now I understand, and I can love out ahead of me beyond my lifetime in a different way.

Autumn: Yes.

adrienne: Um, I know that as an aunty, that's something that happened for me, is I was just like, it's not theoretical anymore.

Autumn: No.

adrienne: It's these people. Autumn: No. it's these people. adrienne: And I really want -

Autumn: And I'm - yeah.

adrienne: - them and their people that they're gonna bear, and, you know, and so on. But I think this is where, you know, we will be able to tie back into Indigenous wisdom of thinking in terms of seven generations, which I think is, to me, the most loving worldview that I've ever really come across, it's like, oh, like I'm loving myself in this vast sense of what it is to be of a time, place and, and being.

Autumn: Mmhmm.

adrienne: So that is what we're thinking of so far for our season. Um, we hope it excites you as much as it excites us to look ahead at these conversations. And I wanna say to our readers, if there's something we're missing, you know, if there's something you're like -

Autumn: Listeners.

adrienne: - what about - oh, what did I say?

Autumn: Readers.

adrienne: Readers? {laughter} Well, you know, I am also a writer. Um, yeah, to our listeners, that if there's something that you're like, you know, I'd love to hear y'all touch on this, or, you know, this might tie into one of the topics you've already explored, or this might be something different, um, I will say, there might be something on loving animals. There might be some other kinds of love out there. {Autumn laughs} Let us know if there's something that you're like -

Autumn: Yeah.

adrienne: - hey, hey, hey, alright?

Autumn: Actually, let me correct myself. We have both listeners and readers, cause we have transcripts and now we have people -

adrienne: Well, that's true!

Autumn: - who primarily consume the show by reading it. So let me not invisibilize all of the people who aren't actually listening to the show, {laughs} but are taking it in.

adrienne: Ooh!

Autumn: Yes.

adrienne: Good correction, sister, I'm proud of you.

Autumn: Yeah.

adrienne: Good job.

Autumn: I'm getting better and better at, like, correcting myself in real time.

adrienne: Yeah. We're, {Autumn sighs} we're all learning. So, to our listeners and our readers -

Autumn: Mmhmm.

adrienne: - we wanna hear from you about what would be, what, if there's any pockets of love that we have missed. So -

Autumn: Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

adrienne: Um, and I love you, sister. I wanna tell you that, like, you really have been one of my favorite co-scholars in this work of figuring out what love looks like, and what it means to be in love, what it means to, um, do the work of love -

Autumn: Mmhmm.

adrienne: - what it means to choose ourselves. Um, you know, to, like, I think that we share this practice of like being very skilled at pouring our love out into a lot of other containers -

Autumn: Mmhmm!

adrienne: - and kind of being a little late blooming when it comes to, like, pouring that love back into the containers of ourselves.

Autumn: Oh yes. {laughs}

adrienne: But, I'm so astounded by how I've seen you pouring the love into the container of yourself, and I'm really grateful to get to be in these conversations with you.

Autumn: Same, same. We have certainly been on the journey together, {adrienne laughs} all these years.

adrienne: Mmhmm.

Autumn: And always, always learning the lessons. If not at the same time, then letting each other know that, {adrienne laughs} hey -

adrienne: Within a month.

Autumn: - I, {adrienne laughs} I learned this, I learned this lesson and this lesson's coming for you, too, girl. Um -

adrienne: Oh yeah. Oh, we do have that. I was like, someday the text messages are gonna be - Autumn: Yeah, that happens for us, too, I think where it's like -
adrienne: Uh-huh.

Autumn: - and I think that that's also what a loving relationship can do, right? Is like, you trust each other enough to know when someone else has, like, the wisdom or the medicine for you that you're gonna need, but maybe you don't need it yet.

adrienne: Mmm. Yeah.

Autumn: You know? And I think that, I think that we, we've certainly taken turns playing that role in each other's lives.

adrienne: Oh yeah, yeah.

Autumn: So -

adrienne: It really feels like there's an equality of love wisdom amongst us.

Autumn: Mmhmm, absolutely.

adrienne: {laughs} Um -

Autumn: Yeah. It's gonna be a great season.

adrienne: Yeah. It's gonna be a great season. So, let's wrap up this episode with some pop cultural joy. And -

Autumn: Mm mm mm!

adrienne: - um, do you wanna go first? You want me to go first?

Autumn: {singing} I wanna worship at the church {adrienne laughs} of Shonda Rhimes!

adrienne: {singing} Shonda Rhimes!

Autumn: She is just a fucking genius. Um, so for anyone who hasn't seen Bridgeton season two, I don't know who you are, or what rock you live under -

adrienne: {imitating British noble} Why, why have you not seen it? Autumn: Um, I was, I was concerned.
adrienne: Yeah.

Autumn: I was concerned about Bridgerton season two when I realized that, um, Regé-Jean was not called René - who you call René but we found out is actually called Regé. {adrienne laughs} Regé-Jean. When I found out that he was nowhere in sight of this season, I was like, okay, well what is happening without his life?

adrienne: What is sex? {laughs}.

Autumn: Um, where's the sex gonna be?

adrienne: I don't understand.

Autumn: And I have to say what they, what they skimped on in actual sex seasons this season, they more than made up for with almost kisses. And -

adrienne: Oh my god, those almost kisses.

Autumn: Wow! {adrienne rolls her tongue} The amount of almost kissing that happens over the course of -

adrienne: Did not even know you could stand that close to someone that long.

Autumn: - found myself just laughing and, like, waving my hand in own face, and just like, I, it was delightful. It's a delightful season.

adrienne: It really is.

Autumn: Um, there's a few things that you're like, uh, like why is Eloise not gay? Doesn't make sense.

adrienne: She says -

Autumn: And she should be gay. She's obviously gay, but why is she not, like, why is there not like a main gay character? It doesn't make sense.

adrienne: Yes.

Autumn: Um

adrienne: Especially given that the main character is gay.

Autumn: The main character actor is gay in real life, exactly!

adrienne: Exactly.

Autumn: It's just like, what's going on? Anyway.

adrienne: I was like, no wonder he's just breathing at her. {laughs}.

Autumn: Exactly. {laughs} He's got amazing chemistry with everyone, apparently. adrienne: Oh my God.

Autumn: Um, {adrienne rolls tongue} yeah, so anyway, there's a few things that I was, like, not feeling, you know, like, I was, one of the nights that I was watching {laughing} the season I was, was when my bestie was in town.

adrienne: Mm.

Autumn: And we had this moment, we were watching a few episodes together and she looked at me and she's like, yeah, like why do all, I can't differentiate between the three brothers in the Bridgerton family. Like I don't, I can't tell them apart. And I was like, you're right. They have all the same personality, basically.

adrienne: It's very, very sim - Autumn: So you know, there's - adrienne: I also am like -

Autumn: - there's things that don't -
adrienne: - why isn't Penelope like being pursued? Like, I wanna see, I wanna see a fat love story on Bridgerton.

Autumn: Exactly. Exactly. So anyway, there's things that I'm hoping for in season three, but I will say overall, season two, knocked it outta the park. Super fan of all the breathing, and the, like, {adrienne laughs} trauma response of the beasting moment. I loved that. I was like, {adrienne laughs} yes -

adrienne: Oh my god! Ah!

Autumn: - bringing in the, all of it. I was, I was a fan.

adrienne: Yes, that part was so good.

Autumn: Yeah. Lots of -

adrienne: Well, I wanna uplift -

Autumn: - great stuff happening right now - and that was one of it.

adrienne: I wanna also uplift, so I've been rewatching Scandal, and, um, I, I was really appreciating both, like, I've been rewatching Scandal, I've been going back and catching up on Grey's Anatomy and then watching Bridgerton, I'm like, you know, Shonda really commits to the fantastical. Like, in each of her shows -

Autumn: {laughs} She does!

adrienne: - there's something that is really just like the fantastical. So in Scandal, I'm like, I have to keep reminding myself, like, somehow you have me watching, raptly, about the hijinx of these Republicans and you know -

Autumn: Yes! {laughs}.

adrienne: - the ultimate, like, main outcome of this is like, these are bad people. Like, and every season -

Autumn: They're really bad!

adrienne: - Is just like, even though it's interesting, and even though you might wanna root for some of them, like fundamentally, these are like, they're bad. And there, but there's this fantastical thing, which is like, there's a love story and they're good, you know?

Autumn: Right. And they're the white hats!

Adrienne: The white hats. {Autumn laughs} Right? And I'm like, oh, but that white hat -

Autumn: They're somehow, like, really liberal and [WORD UNCLEAR] -

adrienne: I'm like, you literally have like bloody fingerprints, all over your white hat now. But anyway, so -

Autumn: Yes.

adrienne: - with Bridgerton, too, I feel like she's really doubling down out on the fantastical. Like, you know, this is a diverse space that will never, ever, ever talk about race. Like we will -

Autumn: {laughing} Right!

adrienne: - not do it.

Autumn: Never does, it's not part of the story.

adrienne: It's not gonna be able to talk. There will be scandal, uh, that is related to, like, who is marrying who, but it will never have anything to do with race. It's only class. That's the only thing here.

Autumn: Yeah.

adrienne: And it just makes me think, like, I just hope that all the people in movement who are always like, it's only class! You know, are just, like, watching this and just enjoying it. Right? I'm like -

Autumn: Yeah -

adrienne: - this is what it looks like if you try to hold the analysis that it's only class. {Autumn laughs} You just see the race anyway, and you're just [PHRASE UNCLEAR] so, um, enjoy. So then, um -

Autumn: What's your, what's your top culture, girl?

adrienne: So mine is, and we mentioned it a few times in this - and I wanna thank you, because I was minding my business in life -

Autumn: Mmhmm. {laughs}

adrienne: - and, you know, as I may have mentioned, I was commissioned for a musical. So -

Autumn: Huh.

adrienne: - I've really been immersing myself in the realm of musical projects -

Autumn: Right.

adrienne: - and going back and watching some of my favorites. And I had a group thread going and Autumn just dropped into it, and really out of nowhere -

Autumn: Really out of nowhere.

adrienne: - really out of nowhere, was just like -

Autumn: Yeah.

adrienne: - by the way, does everyone know about High School Musical: The Musical: The Series. And I didn't know about it. And I -

Autumn: Right.

adrienne: - I didn't know about it.

Autumn: Now you know.

adrienne: And I then immediately got to come visit you and get the, um, I would say the fast-track education exposure, first to High School Musical, and what was happening was Zac Efron and Vanessa Hudgens and the like -

Autumn: Mmhmm.

adrienne: - awkward, wonderful teenage ridiculousness of the original High School Musical story.

Autumn: Which we, which you and I both, we, we missed that somehow -

Adrienne: We missed it completely.

Autumn: I don't how, like -

adrienne: But we were not -

Autumn: - I think it came right in the moment right after -

Autumn: - in the dating of it.

adrienne: Yeah, so like, if I can, I think it was like, both of us had just it's like, I was already graduated from college and I think you were going into college.

Autumn: Right.

adrienne: And so it's like -

Autumn: We were too old for it.

adrienne: - I literally am not paying attention. I don't remember anything that was on TV the whole time I was in college. {laughs} Like, I just don't.

Autumn: Right, right.

adrienne: So I think that that was it. It was, I was too old for it -

Autumn: It was like, we knew that it was happening, but we were not -

adrienne: I didn't even know that it was happening.

Autumn: - we had no exposure to it.

adrienne: Like I literally remember seeing Zac Efron, being like, who is that? Why is he famous? I don't understand -

Autumn: Yeah.

adrienne: - right?

Autumn: Exactly.

adrienne: And part of what you said was Zac Efron is actually a triple threat, did you know? And I'm like, I didn't know. I don't -

Autumn: I still don't understand what you're talking about. {laughs}

adrienne: So then I sat down with your children and we watched High School Musical - Autumn: The original musical.

adrienne: The original musical. I was totally like, oh, this is just so over the top and goofy and corny and delightful.

Autumn: The basketball players who are dancing with basketballs.

adrienne: It's, it's wonderful. And there's no -

Autumn: {singing} Get your head in the game, jigga jigga jigga, get your head in the game.

adrienne: - like the thing, the thing thing I love about Zac Efron particularly is it's like, just, and I think that Glee has also played in this category. It's like, people who are like, I'm supposed to be cool, but I wanna do a musical, {Autumn laughs} but the whole framework of it is like, it's not possible to be really be cool at that age, right?

Autumn: Right.

adrienne: So no one actually is, but everyone's doing their performances and it just makes it all so plain. And then like, the sticky, sweet way that Vanessa Hudgens and Zac Efron look at each other and look period, like, they just, I'm like who walks around with cheek, cheeky smiles like this?

Autumn: So cute.

adrienne: Anyway, it's just so chipmunk-y and cute and adorable. And then, and then the beautiful thing is, the High School Musical: The Musical: The Series is -

Autumn: It's incredible.

adrienne: - a series that is set, it's still all fictional, but it's set at the high school where the musical was filmed -

Autumn: Filmed.

adrienne: - and with a, a sneaky teacher who has, who realizes that the musical has never been put on at that high school. Hijinx ensue.

Clip of High School Musical: The Musical: The Series plays. Dialogue: Auditions are after school. {cheering}.

Autumn: I've seen the original movie 37 times. And the first 15 minutes of both sequels. It would be insane to think I might actually have a shot at playing Gabriela.

adrienne: Now, what I'm still so deeply in love with is we don't ever know what the musical is that they were putting on. There's never like a, here is the musical. It's like someone keeps writing songs that seem to be sort of, is there a storyline? We don't know. Right? We don't know. This, and it's not like we're putting on Romeo and Juliet, or we're doing this, or whatever. It's not like that.

Autumn: Wait, you mean in the series?

adrienne: In the series, it's like -

Autumn: In the series, {both sisters speak in synch} they're putting on High School Musical -

adrienne: - but High School Musical was them {laughing} putting on a musical.

Autumn: Oh, right, and we never know what that one is, that's true.

adrienne: We never know what that musical is, right? {Autumn laughs} But then just songs keep getting written. And then Olivia Rodrigo -

Autumn: Cause everybody, cause in High School Musical, every, everything is leading up to the audition.

adrienne: Everything leads - yes. The peak of it is this audition moment. A callback, okay?

Autumn: Right. {laughs}

adrienne: So, and then I also have to say, so for me, the people, the standouts are Zac Efron and then Olivia Rodrigo, who is in the series, um, who -

Autumn: Before she became super famous.

adrienne: Before she became super famous. And I love - Autumn: She was on the Disney Channel.

adrienne: - "Driver's License,'" that song. So I was like, so happy to go back and be like, oh you come from somewhere. And then, um, {Autumn laughs} I was like, this song, didn't just drop miracly, miraculously outta the sky. And then what's her best friend's name?

Autumn: Her best friend's, on the show, her best friend's name was Courtney. I don't know the actress' name.

adrienne: Ok. Whoever plays Courtney, I need to know what's happening with her career, cause she's amazing. And -

Autumn: I'm gonna look her name up right now.

adrienne: - what felt so comforting to me, so, she's this like bombastic Black queen who's giving excellent advice and has awesome, like, happy style. And what made me so happy was my nibblings kept being like, 'She's giving major adrienne vibes.' And I was just like, I see it too. I feel it too.

Autumn: It's so perfect. The actress's name is Dara Renée.

adrienne: Okay, Dara Renée, where are you? What are you doing? Like, let us know so that we can, like, watch it, and listen to your music.

Autumn: Exactly.

adrienne: She's incredible. She needs to have her own whole thing.

Autumn: She needs to have an album out.

adrienne: So that's the like real sweet lighthearted place that I've spent my col, you know, I've been, I'm between Scandals, so it's like the torture seasons of Scandal and High School Musical: The Musical: The Series. {Autumn laughs} That's -

Autumn: It's so good. adrienne: - my range.

Autumn: I have to say this, this series is so good. And it's truly one I can recommend to like, if, if you love musicals, you'll love it.

adrienne: Yes.

Autumn: Also, if you love mockumentaries, you'll love it, because -

adrienne: Exactly.

Autumn: - it's got that, like, confessional element, where they're talking directly to the camera about what's happening around them.

adrienne: Mmhmm.

Autumn: So it has that sort of Office feel. adrienne: Mmhmm.

Autumn: Um, yeah. And if you're like into just like awkwardness, there's so much of it in the series.

adrienne: So much awkwardness. Autumn: So people of all ages - adrienne: And just feeling it.

Autumn: - can enjoy the show -

adrienne: Yes.

Autumn: - and the music is really fun.

instrumental music begins, continues over speech

adrienne: That is our show. That is our first show. We have season six open, okay? And -

Autumn: We've opened it.

adrienne: - should we do credits

Autumn: Let's do it.
adrienne: Do you remember how to do them?

Autumn: Okay. I think they're right here. Thanks for listening to our show. They're right here at my Google doc. We're on Twitter and Instagram @endoftheworldpc. We're also on Facebook @endoftheworldshow. Even if no one else is.

adrienne: {laughs} Should we stop being on Facebook? Okay. You can make {Autumn laughs} a sustaining {laughing} donation to our show by visiting our page at patreon.com/endoftheworldshow.

Autumn: Another incredible thing you can do to help our show sustain itself is to write us a review on Apple podcasts, if you are an iPhone person, thank you.

adrienne: Or just post about it. Um, "How to Survive the End of the World" is produced and edited by the incomparable Zak Rosen, and transcribed by the sweet, delightful, and talented Jess Pinkham.

Autumn: And music for today's show comes from Tunede Olaniran and Mother Cyborg.

adrienne: All right. {singing} We love y'all.

Autumn: We love you.

adrienne: See you soon.
{music continues and eventually fades out}