Ayana Young  Hello and welcome to For The Wild Podcast. I'm Ayana Young. Today we are speaking with Ann Armbrecht.

Ann Armbrecht  Can intention be found in global supply networks? Because of this dual nature of plants that are both part of the living world and commodities, can we maybe let them lead us to find a middle way where we create the structures of reciprocity and connection that really seems like the medicine that plants invite us to imagine.

Ayana Young  Ann Armbrecht is an anthropologist (PhD, Harvard 1995) whose work explores the relationships between humans and the earth, most recently through her work with plants, herbal medicine, and the botanical industry. She is the director of the Sustainable Herbs Program, a program of the American Botanical Council, which she established in 2016 to help bridge the gaps between the values of herbal medicine and the reality of sourcing and producing herbs on a global scale.

 She is the author of "The Business of Botanicals: Exploring the Healing Promise of Plant Medicines in a Global Industry" that documents her journey following herbs from seed to shelf. She is also the author of the award winning ethnographic memoir, "Thin Places: A Pilgrimage Home" and the co-producer of the documentary on traditional western herbalism "Numen: The Healing Power of Plants," and was a 2017 Fulbright-Nehru Scholar documenting the supply chain of medicinal plants in India and she lives with her family in central Vermont. 

Well, Ann, thank you so much for joining us. I am really looking forward to being transported into the plant world with you in this conversation. I love thinking, talking, being around plants as much as possible. So it always puts me in a clear space, even though there's a lot of challenges to sift through.

Ann Armbrecht  Thank you so much. I'm really looking forward to as well. I'm a huge fan of your show. 

Ayana Young  Oh well, thanks. Well, yeah, I'm a huge fan of your work. And everybody we have on the show, it's totally my honor and a blessing to be able to have conversations like this with people like you and just, yeah, explore the complexities and the beauty and the frustrations of how to be in right relationship with our lives at this time. And yeah, I guess just to dive right in... a deep theme that your work references is the tensions that exist within our relationships to plants. And on one hand, we have the understanding that plants are living, even spiritual entities. But on the other hand, plants are often treated as commodities or disconnected inanimate objects within supply chains. So as we begin, I'd love if you could outline these relationships and share some of the important distinctions between herbalism as a practice and the herbal industry.

Ann Armbrecht  Sure, maybe I can answer that by telling a little bit about my story into it. So I'm an anthropologist, and did my research research for my doctorate in northeastern Nepal, where I was looking at the impact of this conservation area on the community. And I had a lot of romantic ideas about indigenous knowledge and all of that, which I quickly discovered, you know, things are much more complex and than the categories allow us to imagine they are. But when I was there, I did discover experiences relationship, that the villagers whom I came to know had with the environment where they lived, that was one of mutual respect and reciprocity. And, you know, they would make offerings to the ancestors in exchange for a good rice harvest. And there was Ahal, a Tibetan Lama who came down who would make offerings to keep the rain away, you know, it was a very living alive, meaningful relationship. And then I came home and of course, came home to you know, America, and at the time, the 20th century, and was struck by a lot of the opposite of that, and at that time, I was finishing my writing on my doctorate and I went to an herb conference and I met Rosemary Gladstar and Rosemary has this remarkable ability to .. like, she is a plant. She embodies the aliveness of the plants in this incredibly powerful way. And so I went to study herbal medicine with her. And as I was there, I discovered a lot and how she talked about working with plants that was quite similar to what that sense I had experienced in Nepal about that sense of reciprocity that we're not in control, that it's a land the environment is something living and we act and it impacts that the environment and the environment impacts us and, and to respect that. And so I dove into herbal medicine, I thought this is the answer to everything that's wrong. And as I dove in more, I discovered that to most people herbal medicine is is not that invitation into relationship with the aliveness of the world. It's a product on a shelf in the grocery store, and the supplement aisle. So with my husband, who's a filmmaker, we produced a documentary that we call "Numen," that numen is a Latin word, that means the animating force in all things living. And we really wanted to celebrate the values of the heart of traditional Western herbalism that I was talking about, that I learned from rosemary and others. And so as we were filming, during the interviews for that film, we interviewed people and some of the companies that were really introduced to me as the ones that were doing it right, they talked about the intention, the importance of intention, when you're growing the plant, harvesting the plant, making the medicine, we're interacting with your client, then that that's part of the power of the medicine. And yet, quite often, the herbs that they were using in those products are bought and sold on these global supply chains, where, who knows what kind of intention was brought to every stage of that process. And so I wanted to understand, I wanted to explore that tension and started out by asking, can that intention, that relationship with the aliveness of the plant is a living being be found in supply chains that are governed by the laws of capitalism, where things are treated as commodities, which, to me, commodities are like objects that are there just for our use, and we have a transactional relationship with them, rather than this deeper relationship of reciprocity?

Ayana Young  Yeah. I'm thinking about your book, "The Business of Botanicals," and you dedicate a chapter to quote, the modern renaissance of herbal medicine. And so I'm thinking on the themes you bring up in that chapter and the many herbalist you talk to in writing this book. And so I would just love to spend some time discussing the particular history of how we got to where we are in this era of both herbalism and the herbal industry,

Ann Armbrecht  The herbal medicine I came to know, was through Rosemary Gladstar. I really told that story through the teachers, first Rosemary, and then others who might encountered  herb conferences through those teachers as a way to make it specific, because otherwise, it's such a big story. And I think a lot of that, you know, that was in the 70s, when there was really that rise of herbal medicine, which was around the time of, you know, the Nearings and 'back to the land' and growing our own food, making our own medicine, and all the other things that were part of that. And so Rosemary was part of a group in California, that and there were a lot of other people that were part of that. I think Rosemary's gift, and I talked about this in the chapter is really bringing people together, and the herbalist I've met tend to be quite individualistic and eclectic. And, and, and like to do things their own way. And Rosemary has this remarkable capacity to see beyond the differences and remind us why everyone is connected. And so she created these conferences, and I think those conferences in the 70s, and they continue today in the 80s and 90s. have been instrumental and what's kind of unique about herbalism in the United States, which is this larger sense of community and a connection and a relationship to making medicine with plants. So there was that this renaissance around the plants that was around conferences where they held hands and sang songs and it wasn't just making medicine, it was about a sense of spirit at the heart of that. And yet, then there's products and so all those herbs have to come from somewhere. And this kind of taps into another history which is the history of the trade of herbs, which was a quite robust trade like in the US in the late 19 in the 1800s. And with the eclectics and I talk a little bit about that in the book, but but not a ton. But there was a whole big trade around herbs, especially in Appalachia that supplied the products that were made by the eclectics. And that, as part of that there was highly developed people who understood the quality. And then what happened was, as herbal medicine died out, because, you know, pharmaceuticals came in and modern medicine and there was the promise of being healed with with a pill and, you know, around the time of penicillin and things like that. That was the answer. And herbal medicine as a business died away. In certain, you know, in Appalachia and regions of the country, it definitely continued in homes where that's what people depended on, and they didn't have access to other forms of health care that costs a lot of money. But the trade really died out. And with it, the sense of quality and the understanding of quality died out. And so there's the kind of medicine I studied with Rosemary, which is grow your own, make your own herbal folk medicine. And then there's a kind of transaction of herbs as commodities, that really feeds the supplement aisle, and a lot of the grocery stores that we now know, or, you know, drugstores.

Ayana Young  Yeah, it's interesting to think that when the movement was more fringe, there was more quality control. Because of course, dominant culture likes us to understand the world, kind of in the opposite way that when the over culture isn't in control, then the quality and the efficacy, and the safety of products and practices are not as regulated, therefore not as trustworthy.

Ann Armbrecht  I was super naive when I started the research for this book, and I had a lot of ideas about, you know, local grow your own is better than bigger scale. And I found that it's not necessarily the case, the difference between Europe say in the US, or Europe, there's really strict regulations around quality, and they have the science and the rigor of people who understand the quality of the herbs. So they're better quality products actually, on the market. Whereas in the US, it's really, you have to know what you're looking for. And if you buy the cheapest thing you're likely to get something that's not going to work. It's a complex thing of the chemical constituents of plants, and the mix of intention that I keep trying to sort out.

Ayana Young  I think this is really important, because it is complex. And I don't think there's a way around that. I know for us humans, we really want simple responses. But and we just want to be able to say right or wrong, good or bad. But that's not actually true. And so we're kind of doing a disservice to ourselves when we think we can find ourselves in one end of the spectrum or the other. So I want to ask you about what are we looking for, you know, as we're sifting through the complexity, of trying to find medicine, that's not only best for our bodies, but best for the earth. And really supporting people who are creating medicine with the highest quality and clearest intentions. What do you tell people when they're in that quandary of how they begin to make better choices.

Ann Armbrecht  So when I started, I decided I wanted to tell the stories of the people in places behind the finished products. I am inspired by a quotation by Wendell Berry when I heard him speak once, he was saying, "We have forgotten the forest behind the wood tables that we depend on. We forgotten the lakes that are being drained to fill our bathtubs. And not seeing the impacts of our ways of living allows us to forget the moral and ecological consequences." And so he said, "Change begins with an act of imagination." .. To sort of seen behind beyond the products that, you know, the economy likes us to think are discovered and just appear out of nowhere. And what might telling the stories of the people in places behind these herbal products show that was one question and the other can intention be found in global supply networks. And so I as I traveled around and you know, following your point that there's no simple answers I found If there was an exception to everything I would find there there that it was incredibly complex. You know, herbs aren't like coffee, or cacao, or it's just one commodity, going through the supply networks, companies like Traditional Medicinals, or Gaia will have like 100 to 300 different herbs that they're sourcing from all around the world. And so what do you look for in that kind of situation? And at first, I thought it was a question of scale or intention. And now what I really think what I have found is, it's when people can pay attention, and I attention, as in is this herb dried, or kind of a minute, not dry it completely, but nobody will notice I'll put it in this sack. And so a little, you know, microbes will develop and mold will develop. But if it doesn't come up in the testing, that's fine, I'll push it through. Or attention, like in a collection center in Poland, where so while collectors will bring the herbs to the collection center. And then the head of that collection unit, looks through the bag to make sure that it's nettles in the bag, and not a mixture of plants, all these things that have huge implications for the finished product, come down to the attention of the people. And so then what are the conditions that make that possible? And that's what like free of stress, and so you're paid well enough, so you're not worried about where there's going to be food. So it translates into all these actions. So you, so you have a contract, that, you know, next season, you're going to have work. And so then it's thinking about companies that are paying attention to more to see that larger context that the larger context directly impacts the quality of those herbs. And a lot of companies don't pay attention to that larger context. They just pay attention to the price of those herbs, and getting the cheapest price. And so they'll buy them through suppliers who don't, in turn know where they're from. And so the first question is asking companies if they know where their herbs are from. We organized a half day conference yesterday that was specifically about all of these questions. It was four hours of really top notch speakers talking about how to find the connection between quality and sustainability, like really caring about the ecosystem, how that directly translates into the quality of the herbs. And then what practitioners or anyone who's using herbs can do to support the companies that are trying to do it, right, because they're competing, and really challenging economic circumstances. And so asking questions of companies, the people who spoke yesterday said, companies listen. And the more people that ask companies, if you know where your herbs are from, they know they need to care. So I did this work following herbs to the supply chain, and then I did a Kickstarter to raise $60,000 that then allowed me to go and do a series of videos to tell the stories of the people and plants behind these products. And at that time, I thought my audience was really the herb community. But I had real I realized then that I needed to understand the challenges that people in companies faced to do the work they're doing. Because the herb community, and I include myself here, can be really naive and think it's black and white, and that it's easy to do it right. And, oh, you're not doing this certification that I'm not going to buy from you anymore. And so I think a key part is understanding our as buyers of these products, understanding the challenges that companies are facing. And so as customers, what can we do to educate ourselves more? And if we find a company that we like, and believe in their values, then support them by buying their products. It's in a way, like making a donation to a nonprofit, that companies that are safe, fair for life certified, who are really trying to invest in the communities, pay better wages, they need our support. And I think companies also can be a little more open. You know, there's, I find a marketing of all these companies drives me crazy because I feel like they're just trying to convince me of how perfect they are in selling me a product. And part of that is because consumers customers are going to jump to another company if they don't hear what they want. And so that's the education piece on our part. But on company's part, I think the more they can be open about challenges, right then we're empowered to understand and be citizens rather than just consumers, right? Consumers is a pretty powerless position. All we have is our purchase or not purchase.

Ayana Young  There's definitely more questions in the supply chain slash global commodity herbal market that I have. But I also want to reflect that it's a web of multiple steps that people businesses need to have intentions, you know, hearing about the human rights piece or the human care piece where if we aren't supporting the people growing or harvesting in a sustainable way for them, they then feel forced to have to harvest unsustainably grow unsustainably, package on sustainably even because it puts them in a desperate situation. And so yeah, it's not, it's it's just that is such a piece where I feel isn't talked about nearly enough, whether it's herbal medicine or you know, a number of other businesses. So I really appreciate you diving into that issue. And helping us remember that all of the products we buy are touched by so many people. And even when we think things are expensive, a lot of times the externalities of how much things actually cost to create. If you're really paying everybody a fair wage in that chain. We're not really paying for that in a lot of ways. So yeah, gosh, there's so much there. Definitely a wormhole. 

Ann Armbrecht  Yeah. I wanted to share one story from yet you said I totally agree. And yes, it's a wormhole. And it's all like spins in my head. But I was in Nepal, this fall we were visiting was the first time I've been back since the 90s. But we were visiting a producer company. So that means and they were buying ginger from about 100 smallholder farmers, a company called Organic Valley, US company, but Nepali company. And it was a husband and wife who had started this and they had a processing facility, which is where the ginger would come in the fresh ginger and it would be washed and dried. And the wife whose name is Sola Chana, was managing the factory. And there were about 60 women or so who worked there. And she was talking about her work. And she said, when the women came in each morning to see what notice their faces, and see whether they looked anxious or not. And I asked why that mattered. And she said, "Well, I'm a business woman, and I know if they're feeling anxious, then they're not going to do they're not going to be able to do the same kind of work." And so then she said they wouldn't really talk about it in that moment, but then she would go to their homes afterwards and just find out like what's happening with their children or their parents or their husbands? Do they have enough food to eat and and I thought about that afterwards and with you know, that was a first processing facility that I visited where people talked about anxiety in the faces of the workers as a measurement right and if you think of if everyone thought okay, one of my goals is to produce x product but also minimize the anxiety on my workers faces. I just thought it was a lovely way of doing exactly what you're saying of really going beyond just this extractive model of how much can I get from these workers and really seeing that it goes both ways.

Ayana Young  Well, this is kind of leading me to think about redefining the sacred and the value in medicine and products and in your book "The Business of Botanicals" you ask, quote, "Can the life force of a plant find its way into products manufactured according to the requirements of capital?" End quote. Yeah, so I guess I want to ask you that question back to you and where you've seen that thrive and also diminish in your research.

Ann Armbrecht  So you know, it's interesting, like a year ago, in my work, I was just getting really caught... so that I run this program, the sustainable herbs program, and what a lot of the focus has been really educating around best practices in sourcing and trying to get companies to share information and learn and go further. And it's very much, it's a very heady thing. You know, there's information out there, I need to understand the information and implement the action. And I was getting more and more disheartened by the work. And so I thought that, okay, what's like the root cause, or one of the root causes of all of this, and it's disconnection. It's disconnection from the earth disconnection from each other from the plants, I was feeling disconnected in my work. And so I began, I organized this, what I'm calling a sustainable arts program Learning Lab, which was a group of us that came together with some facilitation from people from the Presencing Institute, which is this awareness based systems change, and is really trying to address these root causes of disconnection, and then seeing what emerges. And so this group has been meeting for two years. And now for the last few months, we've been starting each meeting where one of the participants leads us on a, on a journey to a plant, and kind of takes us into that place of feeling the sense of a plant as a gift, and really letting that inside that experience. And then coming back, you know, it's a short little journey, it's five minutes. And then we come back to the group. And then we talking about challenges of sourcing and those other kinds of questions. But what we're asking is, does exploring those questions from this other place this deeper place? How does that matter? And so rather than like asking in the global supply chain, is that the spirit of the plant showing up there, we're trying to, like, embody it ourselves and see what happens if that makes sense. And it it's made my work so much feel so much more meaningful, and the connections with these people who are involved, so much more meaningful? And so I yeah, I don't know where it will unfold. But it feels important, like an important pathway. That's kind of, to me, you know, there's so much that's wrong with the world right now. And because of this dual nature of plants that are both part of the living world, and commodities, can we maybe let them lead us to find a middle way where it's not just capitalism is all wrong, and anti capitalism is alright, but some place where we create the structures of reciprocity and connection within these global networks. And you know, I don't know and regulatory challenges in the US make it really hard for small scale herbalists to make it work on a larger scale. And it's, you know, what you were saying, you have to scale up. That costs more money, and things like that. But I do find that there are more conversations about coming into right relationship with the people and the plants and the planet than there were when I started this work 10 years ago. So that gives me some hope.

Ayana Young  How do you see it shifting in the last decade?

Ann Armbrecht  Or so there are these huge trade shows that, you know, like, I don't know, 60,000 people, this one in Southern California that I was at a few months ago, ExpoWest. And part of it, you know, there's more educational content. And you some of that is just lip service, because across the way, there's this huge trade show, which is all based on growth. And so, you know, there's more questions, I think that need to be asked about growth. But more questions are being asked than were before, and more conversations in different places like trade organizations, and these industry-oriented conferences, are diving in more deeply sort of going beyond just saying, oh, sustainability matters because consumers want it. You know, that's a big deal. They always talk about that. But they're going beyond that and saying, Okay, what does it mean to I have a transparent supply chain, which is a key to like beginning to know where your herbs are from? More companies are asking that. And so this conference yesterday, we are hoping really to bring that to a larger customer base. So, yeah, you know, it's interesting, a friend who's head of a small kind of coffee alternative company said he, he's an herbalist and he got into this work in an industry, I don't know 10 years ago or so. And he has said, he's also feels far that they're far more conversations happening. As part of that collaborative network that I mentioned that I had started, we have a group that's come out of that, that's Scope 3 emissions, that so companies have to measure their Scope 3 emissions, as part of becoming net zero. And that means where the herbs come from, they need to know how much carbon has been emitted, which is a huge, huge task for a company that sourcing 100 to 300 herbs. And so we're trying to figure out, can we collaborate and have get this data together, so it's not costing each of us, our own, you know, resources to spend on measurement, when what was really needed is for us all to start taking action. So how can we pull our resources and get some of these data measurement companies, you know, that have sprung up now that there's this need to go net zero? Can we get them to work with us in a more creative way, think outside the box. So that's exciting. And then another thing was this trip in Nepal that I mentioned last fall, it was with myself, and then somebody from Martin Bower, which is a the biggest ingredient supplier, it's a German company, and then two brands somebody from Pukka herbs and somebody from EastWest, or Yogi Tea. And this was the first time that 1) and ingredient supplier had been with a brand to visit the supplier. Now the first time that's happened, that's happened, but they don't like it to happen, because they're afraid that the brand will just go around the ingredient supplier, and they'll lose their work. And the first time though, for these two brands, who are competitors on the shelf, to visit a supplier together. And they all also said that was because of the trust that had been built through these meetings that we've had at the Sustainable Herbs Program Learning Lab. And so this is these tiny, tiny little steps, but it shows that like reconnecting, can help maybe create more connections.

Ayana Young Yeah, absolutely. I want to bring up another quote, In your book, "The Business of Botanicals" and its, quote, "As traditional practitioners around the world know well, the process of making medicine begins long before the chopping of roots or leaves. For wild collected plants that begins at the moment of harvest, with cultivated plants, the process starts much earlier, with the decisions about where and when to plant." End quote. And I really noticed that throughout your work, you bring up the idea of medicine as a process, not a product. And so I would just love to dive deeper into this concept and think through some of the forces that have alienated most people from the processes of medicine.

Ann Armbrecht  Yes, that idea of process. The one thing that gives me the most hope right now, right that if we all sort of start to you know, continue to do what we're trying to do, we can make a difference. But get to your question. So I started the book, when I tell a story about a conference I went to when I first learned how to make a tincture, an echinacea tincture and how incredibly easy it was. And it only took like 10 minutes. And yet I had no idea that something like that was so simple, because I didn't grow up in a household where, you know, we grew our food, we made our medicine. And and it was so empowering. And interestingly, so later in the book, when I'm talking when I spend time at a Ayurvedic healing center in southern India, and that the head of that center, Vydrabana was quite articulate about the process being more important. And for him, he was talking about that there was this crisis, you know, I was asking, "Where are your herbs from and are they being taken care of?" and they're, and I was being kind of judgmental, that they weren't being. And he said right now we have a crisis. The Ayurvedic practitioners, they just are used to buying the products off the shelf, and so they don't, they've lost that relationship with the plants that comes from growing them, harvesting them, working with them, understanding the touch the feel, how how the medicines are made, and all of that and without that knowledge, he said, they can't really understand how the plants are going to work in practice, and that's what he was really working to recreate. really the culture, you know, bringing that back. And so he was trying to figure out how they could make the Kashayam. That's the kind of medicine and Ayurveda that he was talking about in their, in their office so that they're participatory in that. And then I think of my own journey, you know, of following herbs through, you know, around the world, that has taught me so much more than I ever would have learned from just taking a product off the shelf. And it's like healed parts of myself through like waking them up, because I learned more and it's empowering. Just all these things that, you know, I think about the various crises in our time. And participating helps heal so much. Right. And that's the process. [Uknown name] in Numan, the film, she said, "You know, we've made it so difficult, like making a tincture is easier than making a pie. But we've made it be something that's the realm of experts." this common knowledge that it was so empowering to be able to make remedies or to know what to give my children in situations when they didn't need a doctor, but they were uncomfortable from a cold or, you know, various things.

Ayana Young  Yeah, no, I definitely understand that feeling entirely. And it's interesting, I'm thinking about another quote, from your book, and its, quote, "The US dietary supplement industry generated $42.6 billion, and retail sales in 2018, with herbal dietary supplements contributing 8.84 billion to the total." End quote. And kind of going back to what you were just saying, being in this quandary of how to make good decisions, and where do you go, when you're starting to feel or you're somebody you love is starting to feel off. You know, there's just so much targeted marketing telling us what super foods to eat, what supplements to take, what vitamins we need. And so, you know, I'm wondering, how might we see beyond this to understand what our bodies truly need?

Ann Armbrecht  I know, I know, it's so hard. And you go to this trade show, and it's all about the targeted marketing, and wanted to just respond to the first part of what you were saying per sec. You know, years ago, a mentor of mine Donella Meadows, she talked about growth. And she said, you know, we need to be asking growth of what, at what cost paid for by whom, and paid when. And that made me think more about like, okay, so growth, we're talking about plants. So plants are growing. And that's a beautiful kind of growth, right? We all love the growth of the earth and living things. And so what about just reframing, or putting growth in context of growing like, like Southern China, growing the peace and relaxation on the women faces who come to her job, growing empathy, and connection, and growing healthy soils. So if a company you know, to have conversations that are brought in not just your bottom line, but growing impact, positive impact on the ecosystem? So I guess that's my hope, you know, back to changes, I don't see that happening so much. My hope is that if enough of us talk about that, we can broaden beyond just this narrow circle of the product to the ecosystem, and the impact on that product. And the other part of your question about targeted marketing and what to look for, you know, a lot of people, especially early on would say, What company should I buy from? And it gets back to that question yours asking about process. When I studied herbal medicine, people would say buy from this company, this company, this company, it didn't really understand why I just know of that company is good company. But then I didn't know enough to know, okay, if it changes hands, and all these companies are changing hands. And so when they have new ownership, or get investment capital, how is that changing decision making? I was still disempowered. And so I resist when people ask me what companies to buy from, and rather like how can we get tools? You know, we're all busy and we don't have time to ask questions and things like that. But to start with, like one thing to learn a little bit more, so we understand why we say buy herbs from this company. And then we're empowered by that and the process helps us be stronger, more resilient, which is what medicine to do, right? Healing us.

Ayana Young  Yeah, Ah, yeah, it's hard to follow our intuition and the marketing and the branding and the bottles and the fonts. And it's hard. You know, it's, I know for myself that I don't want to be a mindless consumer, but then I think sometimes my desire for wanting to buy tricks some part of myself, thinks, oh, but that's a good thing. You know, I can buy this product, because it's plants. And just, it really gets me. I'm definitely one of the people that the marketing works on. But luckily, I've had so many great conversations with Rosemary and yourself and others that when that desire comes up, I have a lot of other curiosities and questions that helped me refine that desire to make better choices, and to reconnect to my body and reconnect to the realities of what I'm consuming, and the processes and you know, everything we've talked about, and you know, asking myself, "What does true health are, what could true health even look like?" And you wrote an essay called "Systems Change and the Herb Industry" for the Sustainable Herbs Program, and there's a quote, where you write, quote, "To me the ultimate irony, and not a good one is that we have systems of medicines, herbal and other based on the premise that you can poison parts of the system, the water, the soil, the air, humans and nonhumans, in some places, in order to produce plants used to create wellness for other people and other places." End quote. Yeah, so I feel like we touched on elements of this. But I just want to ask, How can we better embody the reality that our health is complex ly intertwined with and dependent upon the health of our communities, both local and global? Which is the soil, the water, and the earth, etc, as a whole?

Ann Armbrecht  I know, right? I mean, that to me, that's just shocking. And just at this conference, yesterday, there were several speakers who were referring to some recent research showing the ways insecticides, herbicides, pesticides, impact the microbiome, and make us more susceptible to disease, that in turn, some of those, some of us who have those diseases are going to turn to herbs to heal. And that gets back to this fundamental disconnection. And, you know, I don't know, I, so how I think about that, personally, is what can I do in the work that I'm doing to reconnect reconnect, to see that what we do to the earth we do to ourselves, and we know this information, and yet, it's so hard to shift? I think part of it goes back to what you were saying about price. And you know, I know price is challenging, and has all sorts of economic impacts. But I think those of us who can afford to pay organic, there's a responsibility to do that. Because it's not just about our health, it's about the world we are bringing into being the world we're supporting.

Ayana Young  No, I hear you that we all have specific responsibilities due to our positionality in the world, and what we buy impacts so many people and places, and more than human kin then we can even imagine. And each of those decisions that we make impact a number of other decisions. And yeah, it's just the reality. And I appreciate you bringing that up.

Ann Armbrecht  There's also I think, we can use less, you know, like, back to the question of quality of the herbs, you know, what you were talking about, they're going to work, but they're going to have the constituents in them, that means they're actually going to work. And because people have taken care and paid attention along the way, as we've been talking about, and so you don't need as much. I mean, you know, herbal products from these companies are expensive, and I totally see that and that's a challenge for those companies and for all of us. I don't know that there's a simple answer to that because they cost more you know, and good quality food costs more. So I guess that gets back to as much as we can all learn to grow what we can grow ourselves, you know, in a pot on a porch. In a garden, you know, the simple herbs and then use those and make those make teas ourselves and depend less on the products that are on the shelves and only use those when we really need them. It's there's not easy answers?

Ayana Young  Think we have talked about how to actually get good effective botanicals. And there's so much there about the relationships and doing our research. Yeah, it also just reminds me of this question from your book where you ask, quote, "Is it possible to acknowledge those past wrongs in a way that doesn't simply recreate them? Can we create relationships in which trade actually can be beneficial to all involved, not just because a company claims it to be?" End quote. So I just want to kind of circle back to something we've already touched on. But if there's anything else to add to, when we are going out, because we do need something specific that we can't grow, or our neighbors can't grow? Yeah, we could go into the store, we look on the shelf. And there might be the marketing that says all the things we want to hear. But are there deeper ways of knowing?

Ann Armbrecht  That, are there deeper ways of knowing? Because my answer, as you were asking, I was thinking, well, a way that matters is certifications. Certified organic matters. But then there's this certification for wild harvested plants, which is Fair Wild, there, not many companies that are doing it, because there's not many customers asking for it. But Traditional Medicinals and Pukka have been real leaders in getting that certification going. And that's important because it's paying attention to how the the ecosystem from which the plants are harvested. And it's a fair certification. So there, there's a premium fund built into it and a higher price, you know, it's not huge, higher prices, but it's something and they it's a work in progress. And all of these certifications, they say, their processes of continuous improvement. But by supporting companies that are certified, you're supporting that effort to really invest in the social and environmental ecosystem, and take better care, because they have to go through a rigorous auditing processes. And of course, you know, there's companies that cheat in producer group, you know, there's challenges, they're not perfect. But in an imperfect world, they're a good place to start, you know, there's only like, 8-13% of the herbs are fair certified in the world. And one of the biggest challenges to the long term supply of herbs and herbal products is migration to urban areas, and younger generations who don't want to do the work because it's really hard work. And because they don't get paid enough. And so fair certifications are a step toward addressing those socio-economic challenges. And so I think looking for those certifications is really kind of that means a company's doing more than just putting a fancy marketing on their label and really doing the work because it's work for these companies. And B certification B Corp is another thing because it's, it's requiring companies to really pay attention to more than their bottom line. So those certifications are indicators. But that's not the deeper knowing you're talking about the deeper knowing as you know, I the companies I buy from now, they're people I know. And so I really appreciate and trust that they're paying attention. And the people who I know in the industry, like who work where I work at American Botanical Council, they don't know how to answer this question either. And that's what they say. It's the people they know. So goes back to the point about relationships. But that doesn't help you in the grocery store.

Ayana Young  Well Ann, I truly appreciate that response and all the responses you've given. It's been a conversation I think about a lot in my own head and talk with people and You know, we've had bits and pieces of these topics on other episodes, but never been able to dive in so fully. And so I really appreciate this, and all of your work and research and dedication to these topics. So thank you so much for your time and your care.

Ann Armbrecht  I wondered if I could share one more thing?

Ayana Young  Oh, I was actually going to ask you if there's any last thoughts you wanted to share? So that's perfect timing. Okay.

Ann Armbrecht  So, yeah, and this relates to these questions, you've asked about growth and what to look for. And the, when I, when we were in Poland, we visited. So one was a processing facility, which was put, you know, selling herbs to the global supply networks, and the other was this place called DariNaturi. And it was started by a man who had grown up as a wild collector, and would take herbs into the into Warsaw to sell them. And over time he developed he became, he turned it into a collection center, and then a factory where they would process herbs into tea. And so the factory was there. And then he wanted also, he cared a lot about traditional architecture. And so he had, the traditional buildings in that area were being torn down. And so he would buy the wood and bring it and he rebuilt a number of these traditional Polish buildings. And so that's on the same part of land, part of the land. And then he bought this huge [unknown], this huge botanical garden, and which is just for the species themselves, part of the land has been used to grow the herbs that aren't wild, collected and are used in the factory. The other is this botanical garden with all the species, you know, with signs and educational material. And then there, the building was turned into this hotel that was filled with these young Polish families when we were there. And then there was an herbal medicine, educational component. And I thought that, you know, when you think of like, medicine of place, that's what that felt like that those connections were happening, it wasn't, and that those that weaving together, was really, to me the model where I think we should all aspire to. And it's hard to imagine that in the US, you know, they're herb schools, but they're usually separate from factories, and everything is comes from different places. But that place in Poland, and then there was one I visited in Hungary, that was also a smaller scale, but connecting the growing with a processing with education. And then the center in South India I mentioned that's their vision. They're not there yet, but just to reconnect the plants with the people that are using the plants with education about how to use them. That really seems like the medicine that plants invite us to imagine and create.

Ayana Young  Beautiful. Well, thanks for ending with that. And that's a really special vision to keep with us. Thank you again so much.

Ann Armbrecht  Thank you so much for this time and your thoughtful questions.

Evan Tenenbaum  Thank you to listening to For The Wild. The music you listened to today Flo Perlin, Jeffrey Silverstein, and Andy Tallent. For The Wild is created by Ayana Young, Erica Ekrem, Julia Jackson, Jackson Kroopf, and Evan Tenenbaum.