Ayana Young  Hello and welcome to For The Wild Podcast. I'm Ayana Young. Today we are speaking with Abena Offeh-Gyimah.

Abena Offeh-Gyimah  Who gets to determine whose food is more valuable? All foods are valuable. And I think it's important to how African farmers farm. They carry the ancestral knowledge. They carry the ancestral wisdom. Farming is a way of life. It's not separate from the farmer. It's not separate from your neighbor. It's not separate from connection.

Ayana Young  Abena Offeh-Gyimah is the founder of BEELA Center for Indigenous Foods in Ghana, a project that seeks to preserve indigenous African seeds, foods, and practices. Prior to this role, Abena worked as the Project Lead for the Jane Finch Community Research Partnership, with extensive experience in community engagement, ethical research, program development, partnerships & collaboration, and with previous organizations like North York Community House, Black Creek Community Farm, Jane Finch Center, and with Building Roots Toronto. Abena brings years of experience in conducting ethical community engaged research practice, work in local food systems, seed sovereignty, and collaboration in food sovereignty movements. Abena is a writer, a poet, a researcher, a naturalist, and a conservationist.

Oh, Abena, thank you so much for joining us today. While researching for this conversation, I was really drawn to your work, and really appreciative of all of the threads that you pull on. So I'm excited to get into it.

Abena Offeh-Gyimah  Thank you for having me. I'm excited. And I honestly can't wait to have this conversation. 

Ayana Young  Oh, good! So we're on the same page. Okay, let's see, as we begin, I think it would be really helpful to come to an understanding about what ancestral foods are, as so much of your work focuses on preserving ancestral foods and traditions and in ancestral foods, cultural heritage, and old ways of living you write quote, "I define ancestral foods as local, organic, seasonal and environmentally sustainable foods indigenous to a particular geographic region that locals have consumed for 1000s of years" end quote. So if you could elaborate a bit more on what ancestral food means both technically and culturally.

Abena Offeh-Gyimah  Yeah, thank you. for that. I just was just lovely hearing you read that back. I think culturally ancestral suits are those that are tied to our culture. Foods that are tied to our traditions, and foods that are tied right to our DNA, to our gut shells, foods that our grandparents, great-grandparents ate hundreds and hundreds of years ago. We think about ancestral food, it's not just for consumption, right? I think about the traditions, and the practices that come with those foods. 

You know, now when we go to the grocery store, let me put it this way. But when I go to the grocery store, there isn't a direct relationship between myself, the person, and the food that's on the shelf. It's like, I'm hungry. Let me grab this food and pay for it and go home. You know, but with ancestral foods, there's a connection, right? There is an intimacy that comes with that food. There's a story that's attached to that food.

I think about millet, for instance, and my mother tells me the story of my grandfather who would never leave the house without drinking this millet beverage that we have in the morning. The college zone, where I'm from in the northern part of Ghana, and so my mom now in Toronto, makes the millet meal that we also consume. So I think even when I think about millet, it's not just a grain, right? It's a meal that has the story of my grandfather attached to it. The story of my mother attached to it. Millet also tells me that it's healthy for us. It's a part of our lineage. It's a part of our DNA. My gut health knows it recognizes it. 

And so I think that ancestral foods bring the spiritual component of food that is often missing in the way that we may think and talk about food in this modern way. And I think, you know, when you think about ancestral foods, ancestral food is not separate from the ways in which we farm, separate from the ways in which we eat. It's not separate from the ways in which we plant, the ways in which harvest. Ancestral foods really look at farm-to-table. What is the relationship between the human and the soil and culture and the tradition and the trees and the ancestor that all contributed, in making this food possible for us to consume it in the future, so the the aspects of lineage and heritage in ancestral foods, it's so crucial, because it makes us realize that there were people before us that preserved that, for us to have this today. For me to hold the millet in my hand or to hold a sorghum in my hand or a bombara bean. Someone preserves the years right before me and a year before me. 10 years before me, 20 years before me. And they would [inaudible] this grandparent used in preserving that food whether it was the festivals before the planting season, whether it was the prayers and festivities after the harvest season. All these are crucial part of preserving that food. So when I say an ancestral food is in context to a certain geographic region it is because every part of the world has its own ancestral foods. And we're all connected. But we find ourselves also coming from different parts of the world and in the different parts of the world that we're coming from, yes, there is a shared land. 

The food is a part of our story as people. So an example is two years ago, I met a farmer in the northern part of Ghana. We've worked together since 2017. And I ended up going to his farm in December. And he had pumpkin. So we had pumpkin on the farm. I'm from the northern part of Ghana, but I've never actually seen pumpkin. And he was just telling me the story of how pumpkin and millet, sorghum, bambara beans are usually grown together. And immediately I thought of the Three Sisters in North America, right? Like indigenous cultures in North America. And I thought, Oh my God, it is the corn, the bean, and the squash, right? So those interconnections and just seeing foods that are connected in that way. But I think ancestral foods, I feel like we live in a time I say my perspective worth, it's almost like humans are seen as being above other living things are above trees and above seeds. And the work that trees and seeds and soils and grass and insects and fungi are all coexisting with us and our plate, equal pardonings, and maintaining this earth. And very often when we tell the story of foods, we eliminate all of that. And so for me, ancestral foods bring all that. There is a cultural aspect to food, there's a spiritual, there is traditional aspect to food. And there are people. There are people before us that have maintained and sustained food systems– ancestral food systems for us to be able to have a lot of these foods today. So yeah, ancestral food. For me. It's about foods that are connected to our lineage, foods that are connected to our heritage, foods that remind us of our cultural practices and traditions. Ancestral foods also tell us about the ecosystem rather tell us about diversity. The Baobab tree that had lived for 1000s of years tells us so much about pollinators and the ecosystem and biodiversity. Yeah, so for me ancestral food is really around bringing those linkages between lineage and heritage and tradition, and culture and ecosystems and knowing that this food just did not arise from anywhere. There are people that have participated in preserving, protecting the foods that we have now to ensure that, we too, can enjoy them. But can you imagine folding the story of a millet that has lived all these years. Can you imagine unfolding that story of like the farmer that farmed the year before? And the one two years before and three years before? Imagine all those stories, right? And all the practices that are now forward with me when I hold the millet seed in my hand. And for me, those stories are so important and they cannot be erased or discounted. 

Ayana Young  I loved that introduction. I wanted to bring up some of your other writing. In "Devaluing of Native African Foods" you write, quote, "Although many communities have lost valuable ways of growing and preserving native foods, or may have shifted from growing native foods to cash crops for the market. The role of native African food to sustaining earth's ecosystem is not forgotten. As Native African foods begin to gain momentum as super foods in the health and wellness market, it's important that the shift to valuing Native African foods is led by farmers, the communities who are able to sustain, preserve and cherish these foods, most importantly, by Africans themselves," end quote. Yeah, so I'm wondering, how do we keep the value of these foods in the hands of those closest to their production, consumption and ancestry?

Abena Offeh-Gyimah  Capitalism is a very wild disease. [laughing] But that's immediately what came to mind just the impact on when capitalism, on colonialism on our food systems, the stories we tell around other people's cultural and ancestral foods from the lens of colonialism and capitalism. And so historically, African foods have been presented as backward, have been presented as poor people's food, have been presented as forgotten foods, misplaced, displaced. When it comes to African foods, there are many terminologies that are used to devalue the food. And in the value of the food, the people are then devalued. The land is then devalued, the farmer is then devalued. And so many African farmers are presented as incapable of being able to sustain their own food systems. Disregarding the years of seed saving right there, you're still preserving the land. But the dominant story that is being told is that the continent is poor, the farmers are poor, and that the land does not yield. And so that is the narrative that's being led. So I think a part of that is shifting the narrative that African foods are valuable. Africans can feed themselves, and that the farmers have to because farmers are literally archivists of the land, right? Like I think of farmers like Liberians because they have all this knowledge of the earth and of like, the soil and they know when to plant, they know when it's supposed to rain, when certain birds fly away and certain worms are coming from the earth. They know when there's a shift in the smell in the environment. They can tell when it's about to rain. This is experiential knowledge that you just cannot even purchase anywhere else. But that knowledge is not valued in terms of how we think about knowledge and knowledge production. And so I think one part of that is shifting the narrative and shifting the stories of African food and African farmers. Now how that happens, I have to be honest and say, I don't know, because that is within the intersections of capitalism, colonialism and imperialism and all these things that are, you know, moving and shaking. And so that's one part of the answer. The second part is that we can't go and fix other people's issues. I intimately believe that everyone is a sovereign person. People are sovereign of themselves and sovereign over their culture, sovereign of their traditions, and that we don't necessarily have to go and fix. And I think because the dominant view is - if we're out farming, like how people are forming in the other part of the world, then they're not doing it right. And so I think that African farmers must read because they are the stakeholders. Not only the first part in terms of having that intimate relationship with the land, being one with the land, knowing the soil, understanding crop rotation, understanding agro ecology, but the second part is that they are the biggest stakeholder. It is their land. They live there. It's part of the story. I think it's really difficult and I always have this internal challenge that the people that are most impacted are the ones that have to find the solutions for themselves. And that one cannot be outside of whatever the issue is and determining what the solution is. The value of African foods has to be led by African farmers because they are the stakeholders. They carry the ancestral knowledge, they carry the ancestral wisdom. 

Farming is not for profit in a lot of rural communities across the African continent. Farming is a way of life. Farming season is about to happen in Bolga, where I'm from. And people will leave their jobs. If they're farming as a teacher, they will leave the teaching to go on to farm, because it's also how they've come to understand themselves. And I think a big part of that is because in terms of ancestral ways of being and seeing the world, the land is not separate from the farmer. The land is not just there, and then we enact an activity on it. There is respect for the land as a person, to thank the land for being available for us to grow food on. And I think, because all these cultural belief systems about food and seed and land, it's also important to how African farmers farm. And so it's important for them to lead because their culture, traditions, belief, systems, religion, are all an important part of how they understand land, how they understand food, in relationship with their food and farming systems.

 I think the biggest aspect for me is that we can't necessarily see what is perceived as a problem. And if an individual is not a stakeholder, how can we decide a solution for people that are most impacted?African farmers or African communities that have the most stake have to lead that work, because your food is an important part of how they've lived all these years, because even the definition of food and farming is not separate from livelihood. It's not separate from connection. It's not separate from your neighbor. You can't visit a neighbor where I'm from in Bolga, and they don't offer you food, not because they have to, but because it's just a part of that tradition. You know, you've come a long way, you're visiting me, wow, here's millet, water, and shea butter. And welcoming you, not just to rest, but to see this is also home. African farmers and communities bring who they are and their understanding of food, of land, of life, of connection, of community, to how they live. And that influences how they think about food and  land and farming etc. And different parts of the world, right? We all have our own sort of definition of how we understand what it means to connect with food and land. And so yeah, they can be copy and paste, right. And I think for me it also, like that part of having to leave the value of food is who gets to determine whose food is more valuable? Who gets to say that this one is more valuable? This food is less valuable. All foods are valuable, because they have a greater connection beyond the human, the human eye and a greater contribution in sustaining biodiversity in ways that we don't always get to see and in ways that we don't always get to witness.

Ayana Young  Well, I want to go back to the article, "Devaluing of Native African Foods" and you also write, quote, "During colonialism, the degradation of Native African foods took shape. Indigenous grains, fruits and vegetables became superseded, scorned and regulated as poor people's food, while exportable cash crops such as cocoa, cotton, sugar, and etc. were cultured, harvested, graded and protected against insects and pests with exceptional investment and research, end quote. Huh, yeah, this feels so important for us to dive into because understanding this context, you know, how has colonialism shaped food taste and reputation and how has control over food been a particular tool of colonial control?

Abena Offeh-Gyimah  I'll give an example. I think this year is supposedly the year of the millet. So millet is an indigenous African green, it was domesticated 4000 years ago in West Africa, we have different varieties of millet [unknown]  And then there's also the [unknown] that's considered. And people have been eating millets for a very, very long time, in many different ways. But somehow, this year, across the world is suddenly [unknown] millet. And so for me, I'm like, Who gets to determine that our people's food that they have been consuming for a long time suddenly should be brought to the market? And is then not valuable if it's not brought to the market? And what happens next year, and the year after that? So I think what colonialism did, one, is the devaluation of indigenous foods, because what came with colonialism was whiteness. This idea of what it meant to live in the world, this idea of what it meant to eat food, because culturally, we would eat food with our hand. You would eat with your hand, and that was considered backward. 

So I think the bigger piece, I think what I'm trying to say here is that the devaluation of African food also came with a devaluation of the traditions and culture that is aligned with African Indigenous foods. What also came with that was a devaluation of African farming methods, that then we're also seeing as backward, right. And so the cultural foods that were not exportable, were then seen as poor people's food. Because it aligned with that devaluation. If you devalue the food, the people are devalued. The process to which the food is produced is devalued. The farming systems are not valuable. You're not eating well, if you're not eating foods that are in the market. But I think the devaluation was also how do we understand food? What is food? And how do we understand and if it's a food that is not in what we consider the markets? Thenis it poor people's food? So that devaluation happened on multiple levels, and also in multiple layers. And you also impacted I think one of the greatest impacts was also then how many African people started to see their own foods, and started to engage with your own foods. Because what happened was, if you're told your food is for poor people, and you're no longer aligned with your indigenous values, you're aligned with a different set of values, that tells you that, you know, your ways are backward, you're not good enough, then we separate. There's a separation of self from the indigenous ways of life and living. Yeah, to the way of living that's telling you that your ancestral foods are not good enough. 

And they think in the ways that he also took place, that may not necessarily be visible, is one, through trade agreements. So what happened was that there were a lot of investments that were then put into the cash crops that could be exported. This started to reflect in trade agreements. So that's one part of that. In boarding schools, what was considered as boarding schools are big in different parts of the continent. And then my brain is thinking of [unknown] and no other parts of the continent have it. So children from elementary, primary, secondary school, were then sent food that was not indigenous foods. Yeah.

Ayana Young  Well, this reminds me too, of the term famine foods and you also write about this in "Africa's Indigenous Foods are Not Famine Foods" where you write quote, "African native food should not be categorized as famine foods simply because they can grow and thrive in drought conditions. They're growing naturally in their ecosystems and their use extends beyond the environmental conditions they grow in. Our indigenous foods are not famine foods. They are our histories, our culture and our traditions. Our native foods carry us and the future possibilities of a sustainable food system," end quote. Yeah, so I feel like this really connects to so much of what you were saying. And I'm wondering how is the idea of famine food connected to a global food system that separates people from their food and encourages unequal food distribution across the globe? 

Abena Offeh-Gyimah  So through colonialism, there was the adoption of, we all use this loosely, Western ways of being and seeing the world. So through language, through religion, through education. And so during that process, there was a divorce of the ancestral indigenous ways, because the Western ways of seeing the world were constructed as direct opposition from indigenous ways of being and seeing in the world. So the indigenous ways was either seen as devilish, as backward. So nothing good could come from indigenous ways, a contrast to the Western ways that were provided. And this demonstrated itself very well through religion on the continent, and in many African countries that are predominantly Christian, you see this very often. And so anything that is attached to cultural, traditional, indigenous ways of seeing, is seen as backward, etc.  

And so during the period where trade policies across various African countries started to reflect those that could be exported. Around that period, to give a bit more context, a lot of African countries were still colonized. The first country in Africa to get independence was Ghana. And that was like 1957. And not so long ago, if you come to think of it, that's the first country. So the impact of the colonial government is still deeply rooted in so many ways in how systems are run. And so when it comes to food, things shifted through trade policies. And so the Western nations that are connected to many African countries started to determine what could be consumed and what could not be consumed in terms of what they export and what could be imported, what could come in as foreign foods, etc. But there was also seed loss, right? When World War II ended, there were also a lot of chemicals, and it's like, what do we do with all these chemicals? We'll turn them into agrochemicals. It was being pushed to the continent, the agro chemicals, that GM seeds with GMO corn coming in GMO wheat, GMO soy, that was happening around the late 90s, 1997-98. 

So all of this continued to devalue indigenous foods, because, one, food was now commodified. If there isn't a market for the food, then it's not seen as worthy or worth it to bring in the market. What happened around that time, because of the chemicals coming in, there were also a lot of wars. A lot of communities were being displaced in different African countries. And as different communities were being displaced people were losing your food systems. Millet and sorghum and foods indigenous people ate, because it's a part of how people lived. Were now being considered farming food in context to promoting a lot of foreign foods that were coming in. So the contextualization of Africa, such as famine foods, its it's not something happening out of silos is happening in context to how trade policies are negotiated. It's happening in context to foods that are valued in the market. It's happening in context to agrochemicals. It's happening in context to Western corporations, seed companies or chemical companies that are able to lobby African governments. So all these things are happening at the same time. And so there is no investment, research or funding that is being put into any of the African indigenous foods, because it goes back to what foods are valuable, and who determines what foods are valuable. And if the food is not seen as being able to... if there's no space for the food in the global market, then no food is deemed and determined as food that's not valuable. So a part of the value of African food is calling it famine foods. Because if you call it famine foods, that is a part of that dominant story that Africans can't feed themselves. If you call it famine food, then the western country has a right to say now: we need to feed Africa because they can't feed themselves. So what I'm trying to say is that the idea of famine foods is constructed within a lot of paradigms around the selling of agro chemicals, genetically modified food, trade policies, capitalism, the markets. And so foods that we have been consuming, the example I gave earlier the year of millet, my people never stopped eating millet so I don't understand what this new year of millet is or next year, the year of [unknown] because it never stopped, right? But who gets to sit and determine and see this is the year of millet? And I think the idea of that famine food goes back to that larger work and that larger narrative of colonialism and of capitalism. It's hard to come and sell chemicals, and genetically modify seeds, and promote someone's indigenous foods. It's just not going to work. So in order to be able to sell agro chemicals, then the argument has to be that indigenous foods are famine foods. People just only eat them when it's hard times, not because they're drought resistant, they're climate resistant, they're nourishing, they have a long shelf life, because then you're not able to hold those companies and corporations are then not able to come in and sell the chemicals in the seats and etc. 

There's so many moving pieces that impact that I'm trying to draw on all the other moving pieces. So currently, our seeds are being modified with international laws that determine how farmers can save seeds. And what seeds they can save. So in order to be able to pass a seed law. Now the argument is that indigenous seeds are not viable. Because if indigenous seeds aren't viable, that you don't need a GMO seed, you don't need it. But in order to make the argument, in order for corporations and companies to own seeds, to take seeds away from the field into a lab and have that ownership. The argument is that well, indigenous seeds are peasant seeds, or they're not viable. We can't depend on them anymore, they can't sustain. But these are foods that have sustained us. So it goes back to those larger narratives of devaluing, devaluing indigenous foods and devaluing indigenous farming systems. I hope that makes sense. My brain is like shooting at 100 places.

Ayana Young  I love that.

Abena Offeh-Gyimah   I have so much to say.

Ayana Young  I love hearing you talk about seeds. And yeah, there's more I want to ask, there's the more spiritual questions of seeds as portals and portals for life. And then, of course, just more about the generation-long practices of saving and storing seeds and what we can learn from our ancestors and folks who have been saving seeds for 1000s of years, and how that plays into how we store them today. And just the importance of it because like we've been talking about how we work to keep seeds, indigenous seeds out of colonialist, capital capture. And just the irony of climate change and food insecurity and water shortages and all these environmental challenges and how now all the sudden indigenous seeds are being marketed and captured. So there's so much here and I know you've spoken to some of it, but if there's anything else you could speak to whether on the more technical side of seed saving, ancestral cultural side or the spiritual side, I'd love to just hear a bit more before we move on.

Abena Offeh-Gyimah  I think when I was farming when I started farming on Black Creek Farm, 2013. The wonderful thing was, you have the seed in your hand, it's not dead, it's a living thing. And then you take the seed, and you put this in the soil. And, it's magical you put in the soil, and then it rains and there's sunshine. And this thing comes out. And it's a living thing. And it's breathing, and it's growing, and it's feeding you. And it's feeding other things. And for me, that was one of my first experiences, I'll say, awareness of just seeing the wonder of seeds. And in 2017, when I went to Bolga, and I saw a baobab seed. And I don't know if you've seen the baobab tree, it's large, holds about 10,000 liters of water in the trunk, and lives for up to 5000 years. And I'm holding baobab seed. And I'm thinking, wow, like this large tree is in the seed. Like, are you kidding me that this this baobab tree that I'm seeing now came from this seed, that the past of this tree that I'm seeing was in this, like, grandmother, great grandmother and Greg, Greg Grubb mother, or father or parents of this tree was in the seed. And the future of a baobab tree is also in this seed of [inaudible] of all seeds, right? That the future, whether it's a shea, a mango, an apple, that the future of that tree that we are yet to plant is in that seed. What a wonder. If you've ever been like at the foot of a giant tree. It's just a miracle of life, really, that this living breathing thing that has witnessed years before me that has the recording of the environment, of the sun, of water.. it knows its system. If you've ever seen a baobab tree in the dry season, there is no leaf, it looks like a skeleton, there is no leaf. And during the rainy season, it's full of leaves that look like it has an afro, it's so beautiful.

 And for me, life is telling me that all this information is in the sleep, the tree knows how to heal itself, it's in the seed, the tree knows the seasons. It's in there. The tree knows its health and benefits. It's in there, all this information, it knows the environment that it was thrive in. You can grow baobab seed it in the cold in Canada, right the same way I've made perhaps the maple trees might not grow necessarily. Some trees can grow, but they may not fruit because the environment of the tree is survival and thriving is all in the seed. And for me that just blew me away. That just blew me away. You know, if you take a shea tree, when the leaves fall, the leaves are also compost for the soil. And so in 2017, witnessing and seeing that completely propelled, and I think grounded, that understanding of ancestral foods and the spirituality of seeds. The seeds are past, are present; they hold stories. They know the soil. They know where they belong. They know where they can thrive. They know their ecosystem. And just that component of understanding that. That that's well grounded me around the spirituality, I will say this spirituality of seeds, but it was also seeing the ways in which farmers harvest seeds that they will seed save, and how they save certain seeds. 

 

So for instance, if they harvested sweet potatoes, and to preserve it and keep it long, they will dig the earth. And then they will put the sweet potatoes in there and they'll put ash on it and cover it and it will remain as fresh as the day you harvested it. Grains. how millet seeds are hung up in the kitchen area and the storage area to leave it to dry. It was just seeing the practices of grinding this millet and fermenting it... just the life. Seeds are living things. They're living things. They are our ancestors. Seeds are ancestors. They have been here before many of us were here. And they have also been here with our grandparents.

  

When a tree is dying, the seed is telling us something about the environment, where you plant a seed and it's no longer growing. But then the tree has lived for 10,000 years. That's information for us humans about our environment in nature and our food systems. So for me those are like the spiritual and cultural aspects of seeds and I think some of the technical pieces are looking at how farmers just intentionally plant to nourish the soil. So the farmers know to plant the bambari [unknown] for nitrogen in the soil. And it's also [unknown] because those are lower crops. And then plant the sorghum and the millet and then plant the squash around it. So it's just witnessing this archival knowledge the farmers hold. So precious, that is often disregarded but so crucial that has sustained our life for so long, but farmers do it so effortlessly that we don't realize how crucial this knowledge is. But I think it was just witnessing that cultural aspect of seeds. That this very same seed that I can plant and give food I can plant and have to grow out of it. I can also dry and grind it and ferment it, that your stories around how the seed is fermented. Stories around how millet seeds are used during wars. Stories around how [unknown], millet and sorghum and all these all these foods are. And it's also how certain seeds come to life. Some seeds are planted by birds. 

I think humans, we think we're the only ones participating in sustaining this earth and the decisions we make and the policies that we make. And if we pause then realize how birds are replenishing the earth. Like taking one seed and planting it in a different place. One of the farmers that we work with, he hasn't [unknown[. And he always says the trees that haven't gotten guarding the baobab and shea tree in the shade tree, he sees bats planting it. He sees bats will eat the shea fruit and then when they poop it out, plants it and he's observed bats around his farm. And he always talks about the roles that birds play in planting trees. And if we pause, look at what other species are replenishing the earth and sustaining the world outside of human activities, we would be surprised. Animals, elephants that are eating fruits and planting unintentionally, or intentionally planting trees and crops somewhere else, adds a community of adds that are moving seeds from one place to another. Some seeds also require fire before they can be planted. So even bringing seeds to the light. There's so many ways. And it's so wonderful to be able to witness. It's just the fruit, if you plant one seed, you get a tree that lives years. But then look at the fruit, I'll go back to the example of the baobab, it starts to fruit after 16 years. But if after 15 years, that tree lives 500 years. For 450 years we get a fruit, every single year, for 450 years from one seed that was planted. 

The other aspect I'll add about seeds, is the communal aspect of seeds would then indigenous or peasant seed systems,ao peasant seed systems or people that have a closer relationship to the land whose sustenance I would say, come from the land, maintaining the land and having a relationship with the land through food. So in peasant seed systems, and in indigenous seed systems, there was a sharing, and there is an exchanging of seeds. And I think it is so crucial  to biodiversity, but also crucial to human connection and to community connection. So the exchanging of seeds, the sharing of seeds. That's what makes international seed laws dangerous, because seeds are free nature gave them to us. So for a company or corporation or country, to invest research, and then to claim the intellectual property rights, and the usage of that is very dangerous. It's like a threat to life. It's really a war against life. If you think about all the ways that seeds have sustained humans, visible, invisible, seen, unseen, if we were to take an inventory of all the people that have participated, and protecting, preserving and saving seeds, if we took an inventory of that cultural inventory, and compare that to a company or corporation, claiming intellectual property and then asking the folks that have been protecting the seeds to now pay for it. It's absurd that we're in a time in human history, that this is even something that should happen. The fact that it's even a conversation that we're okay with. I mean, we're not okay. People are resisting and fighting. But the fact that a law has even been passed that has given plant breeders the right to own seeds, bizarre, bizarre, are we even okay? We're not okay? It's so absurd to me, I can't. At the time I tried to process it as I just I just.. how? Seeds? Now, not only are we saying that you're eating salmon suits, but now we were going to say, well, the system, well, the law is going to see that we're going to take that from you soon. We're going to modify it. And then you now have to buy it from us, along with her chemicals. But then you're poor. It's absurd. So I can go on forever. Because my brain is just like, how are we doing this in a life?

Ayana Young  Yeah, I'm completely there with you and I think speaking to the absurdity is necessary because it's insane. It's insane to live in an ecocidal culture, it's really out of control. And I feel like it would be nice to end on something that you had just brought up, which is community and just thinking about reimagining life on Earth with community as guide. Considering that so much of your work takes place in community. So I would just like to ask you, what could the world look like if we paid attention to our local communities and invested in local seed banks, and really started to believe in those around us? 

Abena Offeh-Gyimah  A couple of things coming from why me three things, connection, trust, and love. Connection, trust and love. When I think through some of the work that we have done, the bigger piece has been trust in all the connection, I'm not sure. So I think the first thing is the fact that we already know what to do. The communities that we've worked with people know what it means to live in community with each other. People know what it means to be in service, and to be of service with and to each other. And I think it's creating the space, and creating the opportunity for people to be able to do that. And reimagining how we can live in community and having our seedbanks is indigenous and ancestral ways of being. Because indigenous and ancestral ways of being for me means that life is not human centered, we're not looking at humans, we're not looking at ourselves alone to solve the problem. We're not looking at one community leader, we're not looking at an individual to give the answers. But we're coming together in connection with the land with the trees with the seeds. For me, reimagining a community future is not just centered on people. It's also centered on the land and is also centered on other living beings. On the seeds, you know, and the trees, as I mentioned, even on unseen things that are facilitating our existence. I think it's creating, learning how to create mutual space, to be able to trust each other, and to be able to coexist in that space. 

So I think, whatever that ancestral indigenous ways mean, within different people's geographic region, because it may not necessarily be the exact same, but I think as long as it honors living in a way that does not harm other people, and does not harm the land, and the rivers and the waters. In the future that I imagine I cannot just be human centered, while the land and the rivers etc, are harmed. So I think that's the first point for me is living in ancestral ways, and also not being fixed on what that is, but also being open on how that shifts and that changes.

I will say I am or we've been socially conditioned to really see life in a particular way. So sometimes it becomes really difficult to reimagine when the new ways of being and living is in contrast to how we currently see new life. So I think even an ancestral indigenous way of being, it's being open, being open to learning new things about our indigenous ways. You know how the seeds, the one seed, is the past, the present, and the future? So ancestral indigenous ways are not necessarily separate from the future as well. Right? Because if you look once again, the example of the baobab, the baobab seed has had many, it's come out of many trees that have lived in the past, right. But in the same seed, there are also many trees in it that will live in the future. So in the same way that can be  reimagined for my community, is that there is much ancestral knowledge on how we can live in harmony, in connection with trust, with love. And we have a lot of that knowledge in the past, but our knowledge also exists in the present, and they also exist in the future. And I think it's opening ourselves up to be able to do that. 

Another key piece, if I'm looking at seeds, is the sharing piece, using seeds as a lens on how to reimagine community, and how to reimagine the future. These are about sharing. There is a sharing, there's an exchanging, there's a giving. And in looking at that value in that relationship, that seeds bring, in re-creating community. We have to learn that every single person is valuable. Your value does not come from performing. It doesn't come from something that is extractive right, you are valuable just as you are as a human. A seed is valuable as it exists as a seed, right in our hand. We don't say Okay, now that we've planted you, and you produce a tree, you're now valuable. We know the value of the seeds, just in our hand. Seeds, in the same way that in the future of community with other humans, we are valuable, just by living. Everything else we do is extra. And so in reimagining that community, humans are valuable just in our existence, and sharing ideas and exchanging knowledge in being in service with and to each other. 

I'm looking once again from the lens of a seed and looking at community through what seeds bring us. Close to 300 people traveled to [unknown] in March across the African continent, to protect and save indigenous seeds. That is community. For me that was the kind of future that I want–that for four days we ate indigenous food for breakfast, lunch and dinner. For four days, we communed on agroecology. We learned about the different ways in which different communities are protecting your friends' seeds, right? This is the sharing of humanity. I think that's it. What can a seed tell me about community? What a seed informs me about itself is how it's seen. I want to see a reimagining of community. I think that of course is looking at our ancestral indigenous ways of being and how we can live in harmony with their waters and land and seeds and other living things as well. And the second piece will be the sharing and exchanging of our service and our thoughts and our ideas and our existence. And the third piece is harmony and living in harmony. Just sitting on their tree and see how three or four different species of trees are just there in harmony with each other.

Ayana Young  Abena, this was so beautiful. Thank you for sharing your time and your heart and your passion with us. It was a really energizing conversation. And yeah, just appreciate spending this time with you. So thank you so much.

Abena Offeh-Gyimah  Yeah, thank you Ayana. Thank you for having me. It was fantastic just to sort of theorize, say some of these things out loud. And yes, sometimes when you're doing work connected to seed, to land and water, you just realize how much like Earth loves you, you know, like I'm just here and the seed loves me enough to feed, loves me enough to give me land, loves me enough to give me fresh drinking water. And the land offers itself because of love for me to grow food because it trusts that I will live in harmony with it all. You know so hearing you read the quote and hearing myself I was like what an honor. You know it is for Yeah, so they'll learn to just trust us to be in harmony with them to protect and to preserve. So thank you for having me. Thank you.

Ayana Young  Thank you.

Evan Tenenbaum  Thanks for listening to For The Wild. The music you heard today is by Buffalo Rose, Marian McLaughlin and Eliza Edens. For The Wild is created by Ayana Young, Erica Ekrem, Julia Jackson, Jackson Kroopf and Evan Tenenbaum.