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Hello, and welcome to For the Wild Podcast. I'm Ayana Young. Today I'm speaking with Sha’Mira Covington. 

Sha’Mira Covington I believe that the fashion industrial complex hasn't even grappled with the fact that the industry was built with slave labor, that it was built on Native and Indigenous genocide. So this pivot to racial justice is interesting to put nicely. The fact that we have diversity, equity, and inclusion issues in representation in fashion- this is just representation. Just seeing a Black designer get mainstream attention, even though the industry has profited off of Black labor, Black culture, Black aesthetics, just seeing Native Indigenous models on the runway, even though the industry operates on Native and Indigenous lands, and also appropriates Native and Indigenous culture; Marginalized representation and the industry is still egregious. So, for companies to be saying that they are for racial justice, I mean, I'd like to see this, right? 

Ayana Young Sha’Mira Covington is a Ph.D. candidate in the Department of Textiles, Merchandising, and Interiors at the Institute of African American Studies at the University of Georgia. Her research explores fashion as a cultural, historical, social, and political phenomenon involved in, and affected by histories of colonial domination, anti-colonial resistance, and processes of decolonization and globalization. Her dissertation, “The Revolution Will be Embodied” uses archival sources to argue that despite the fashion industry's exploitation of Black activism, Black people have always used embodied practices such as dress, yoga, and dance to liberate themselves from hegemonic forces. 

Well, Sha'Mira, thank you so much for joining me today. I really look forward to our conversation.

Sha’Mira Covington Thank you for having me.

Ayana Young I'd like to begin our conversation in recognition of what you call the fashion industrial complex, which feels especially important as it highlights the limitations of transformation when it comes to inherently exploitative systems. Where my mind really goes is thinking about how brands are using the term sustainable in very finite dimensions. For example, we hear about businesses that are sustainable in their use of materials. They use bio fabricated textiles, measure their water usage, etc. Or we see companies who have an ethos toward sustainable production in terms of paying their workers a semi livable wage. But rarely do we see both. For example, a recent report put on by Stand.earth lotted Nike, Levi, and Puma for "shifting their supply chain away from fossil fuels." However, we know that these fashion companies are also responsible for exploiting workers across the globe through cheap labor. So, I wonder if you could begin by responding to this inquiry and the restrictions of the fashion industrial complex when it comes to achieving true sustainability?

Sha’Mira Covington In your question, you bring up the fashion industrial complex and what that is. To contextualize the fallacy around sustainability in the fashion industry, it's important to understand how the industry actually operates. It does that in an industrial complex. The fashion industrial complex is what I consider to be the fashion industry's collaboration with the social and political systems of society, and then the creation of profit from these systems. I like to remind people of the prison industrial complex because we know that term more commonly. In that complex, there's an overlap of interest of government and industry to do things like surveil, police, and imprison as solutions to economic, social, and political problems. The fashion industrial complex is similar. It has historically, and in contemporary times, used things like slavery, genocide, environmental warfare, and the profits from that to solve economic, social, and political problems. And the fashion industry does this through the glitz and glam of consumption. 

Taking all of that into account, we have to ask ourselves, how can such an industry be sustainable, especially under capitalism, which is going to value capital accumulation, competitive markets, private property. When we hear about brands being sustainable in terms of material or water use, we have to ask ourselves how that works. We know that we're in a climate emergency, and we should absolutely be decreasing water use and creating with sustainable materials. But if you're a brand or fashion company, you're still selling a product, right? And your goal is to increase sales for a profit. So when I think about that, I say, I now have more of what's considered sustainable clothing in my closet. But we haven't gotten to the root cause of consumerism or capitalism. Unethical working conditions are the same. 

We hear about companies who are being transparent in where they manufacture, which is great, but that transparency doesn't change the fact that the fashion industry runs on overproduction and overconsumption. So we have workers who are ethically laboring in a system that's still unsustainable. And so the fallacy is what is currently considered sustainability in the fashion industrial complex is not sustainability. It can't be. It doesn't take into consideration history, or how the fashion industry is situated in capitalism. And at current, sustainability in the fashion industrial complex doesn't have it doesn't have the range to truly be sustainable. At this point, in my opinion, what we consider sustainability in the fashion industry is lip service, it's PR, it's marketing for consumers, and what's considered greenwashing.

Ayana Young I completely agree with everything you said. And I'm so happy that you brought to light some of these issues because the PR and marketing greenwashing just feels like it's bombarding us every day. I mean, anytime you look at a fashion website or social media, there's so much rhetoric around sustainability and, and I even the fabric stuff, it just kind of drives me nuts. So thank you. And I'd like to explore this topic a bit further in terms of revealing to what extent sustainability has really become nothing more than a marketing ploy. 

For instance, IBM published a 2020 consumer report indicating that eight out of 10 respondents factor sustainability when purchasing. Of course, it isn't a coincidence that other research has found a 125% increase in new products arriving online in the US and UK, being labeled as "sustainable" since 2017. And this trend isn't exclusive to environmental concerns. We've also seen how in the past two years, many corporations and labels quickly pivoted to supporting racial justice. As someone who is paying attention to how the industry exploits activists' agendas, can you elaborate on the trajectory of the fashion industrial complex in terms of marketing? And whether or not any of this marketing is actually authentic?

Sha’Mira Covington It's very similar to the greenwashing issue. Companies are now highlighting racial justice issues, and it's woke washing, right? They're considered woke brands or woke companies. And I believe that the fashion industrial complex hasn't even grappled with the fact that the industry was built with slave labor, that it was built on Native and Indigenous genocide. So this pivot to racial justice is interesting to put nicely. The fact that we have diversity, equity, and inclusion issues in representation in fashion- this is just representation. Just seeing a Black designer get mainstream attention, even though the industry has profited off of Black labor, Black culture, Black aesthetics, just seeing Native Indigenous models on the runway, even though the industry operates on Native and Indigenous lands, and also appropriates Native and Indigenous culture; Marginalized representation and the industry is still egregious. So, for companies to be saying that they are for racial justice, I mean, I'd like to see this, right? And I don't mean just putting Black people or Native Indigenous people in your campaigns. Yes, do that. But the justice, if truly authentic, would be reparative and restorative. If companies were really interested in racial justice, they'd be seeking to repair the harm that has been done.  

They should be coming up with some form of reconciliation with communities in which the harm has been done. I don't know of many corporations who were doing that work without also seeking to commodify and make a profit from those groups as well. So no, I don't think that this marketing is authentic, especially because marketing is promoting and selling goods. And to me, you can't sell racial justice. You can't sell that as a campaign. You can only sell the illusion or the idea of it.

Ayana Young I really appreciate that differentiation. I can literally imagine campaigns in my head. I can see the marketing as you speak. It's frustrating because I feel like it sets the movement back. And it's a total distraction. I'd like to transition our conversation to the very material makeup of the fashion industry. I've read that over 60% of our clothing is polymer-based, and we use approximately 70 million barrels of oil a year to make polyester fibers. Yet, we continue to see many brands gain notoriety for recycling plastic water bottles into fabric, or recycling or upcycling fleece materials, etc. Now, I understand that materials makeup, just a portion of why the fashion industry is so wasteful. But before we delve into the problems with natural fibers, I wonder if you could shed some light on the intricacies of so-called recycled textiles?

Sha’Mira Covington It's a complex idea, this idea of recycled textiles or, using, what you said, plastic water bottles in fabric. I think these are all great steps towards a sustainable future in fashion. But, again, I don't know if the industry is truly doing this to operate in a way that's sustainable. It's all marketing. It's all a ploy because consumers are more social justice-oriented. They want items or to be affiliated with items, to purchase items that are doing some good or the appearance of doing some good. The fashion industry, I think, though, isn't doing it for that reason. They're doing it for profits. 

Every time I think about the fashion industry's use of sustainability, I think of author and activist, Toni Cade Bambara. She wrote in her book The Salt Eaters, something like, "are you sure you want to be well, just to be sure you're ready to be healed? Because wholeness is not a trifling matter." And when I think of sustainability in the industry, I think of that quote because it's not ready. The fashion industrial complex isn't fully committed to being healed. Sustainability as we've been talking about it is environmental justice or racial justice. And to me, there's a healing process that needs to be done and to happen in the fashion industry. 

It starts with acknowledgment, which many of these companies who are integrating these recycled fabrics into their clothing, they're not willing to do that. They're not willing to know the history. They’re not willing to educate consumers on that history. And it's evident in the way that we've seen them respond to criticism around their sustainability efforts. I do think that using these, what we call green materials, or sustainable materials, is a step forward. But I don't think it is a whole and true step that the fashion industry is taking in sustainability.

Ayana Young This inquiry on the deeper healing underneath the action steps is really just so important, and I see it in every avenue of the crises we're facing. And I'm really happy you spoke to that. I initially came across your work via your writing on the history of cotton. And in an article titled, "The legacy of the U.S. Cotton Economy," you write, "The history of cotton in the United States is complex and racialized. To fully understand cotton from a historical perspective, both European colonization in the Americas and African enslavement must be contextualized. The history of cotton in the U.S. includes the hoarding of Native land resources and the exploitation of free slave labor. Additionally, from a socio-historical perspective, the legacy of cotton presents a record of human activities and the effects of those activities. For example, chattel slavery in the US was primarily used for cotton production, meaning that human beings were treated as property, sometimes worked to death, and were grossly beaten and mistreated in the pursuit of cotton."

I understand that this could be a whole episode in itself. And I encourage listeners to explore Slow Factory's course, History of Cotton, instructed by you and Teju Adisa-Farrar, but for the purpose of our conversation, I wonder if you could speak a bit about cotton as another example of the PR behind fashion and the greenwashing of materials that we might naively consider to be less harmful than their synthetic counterparts.

Sha’Mira Covington The PR for cotton in the fashion industry has counted on erasure. When it's really considered, it's evident that the history of cotton in the U.S. includes, like you said, the hoarding of Native land resources, this exploitation of free slave labor. Most of us are familiar with, in our history classes, the Trail of Tears, which was in 1838, the removal of Native and Indigenous peoples from a region in the South that was known as the Black Belt and resettling them in what was considered Indian Territory, and later became Oklahoma. And this was because of cotton. Native Americans were living on what was probably the richest soil for cotton production, and their removal created a scramble to settle these lands and raise cotton. And this led to one of the greatest periods in economic expansion and profitability in American history. But we don't know that about cotton, right? The general public doesn't know that information. 

Also, when we think of slave auctions in history in the domestic U.S., it's considered the second slave trade. It was to redistribute free labor, slave labor in the States because there was an unprecedented growth of cotton in the industry globally and in the U.S. The U.S. wanted to be involved in the global economy of cotton, so it had to expand this cotton economy. And so we have this second slave trade that happened domestically. And most of us in the public are unaware of this history. And that's because of the commercialization of cotton in the fashion industry. To sell cotton, it has to be appealing. And that means disregarding these ugly truths, the true history of the fiber. 

Now, cotton is considered or associated with the fabric of our lives, right? It's natural, it's eco-friendly. But even that's not entirely true. We know that it takes significant water to produce cotton, except if it's organic cotton, in which case, there's less water use, but organic cotton yields less as well. Is it really less water if we have to make more of it to make a t-shirt? There's all of this hidden history, this hidden knowledge around cotton, and cotton's image has definitely been created on the omissions and mistruths. I'm not saying all this to vilify cotton itself because as a descendant of us slaves, I have a very deep connection and love for cotton as a fiber and a fabric. But I say all this to critique the capitalist system in which we live and operate in and to expose that there is a history behind all of this PR.

Ayana Young Well, I'd like to go a step further and ask you about why a transition to organic materials like cotton, hemp, or bamboo isn't enough. And I see so many so-called ethical companies boasting the use of natural fibers like cotton without recognizing that we're facing a water deficit future. You were getting into this, where it's just preposterous to think that we can continue to harvest more cod and uphold an industry that produces over 80 billion pieces of clothing per year, especially given that cotton typically grows in dry environments, to begin with. So I'd love if you could elaborate on the requirements of natural fibers from an environmental standpoint, or just perhaps any thoughts you might have in response to high-end labels who are seeking to make a name for themselves off of natural fibers.

Sha’Mira Covington I have more to say about the high-end labels that are doing this. I think they are starting to make a name for themselves off of natural fibers because of consumer preference, right? Not because they're particularly concerned with sustainability as a justice movement, or they're concerned with the water deficit, but consumers have fiber and fabric preferences. Since consumers are more interested in sustainability, eco-friendliness, green, natural, or at least, like I said, before, wanting to appear more interested in this. They are, of course, demanding that labels also appear sustainable. And as we just talked about cotton's unsustainability as a natural fiber, other natural fibers have the same problems. And I think also the problem is cost with many consumers. There's the critique which I have that sustainable clothing is too expensive for the average consumer. And so, higher-end labels which cater to this higher price point of consumers can use this expensiveness to their advantage by keeping sustainability an exclusive aspect of the industry by leveraging the use of natural fibers. So again, I think this is all profit motives.

Ayana Young Gosh, there's just so much that's coming to my memory as you're speaking, just seeing all the rhetoric around this and how these brands are trying to sell, sell, sell, sell. The never-ending sales pitch. In thinking about an article written by Céline Semaan Vernon of Slo Factory where Céline shares, "Source Map has traced supply chains for most major clothing and apparel manufacturers. And the data mapping it provides shows that world trade routes are mostly the same as they were 150 years ago, at the height of European colonial exploitation in the same way that colonized nations provided cheap sugar, chocolate, coffee, and fruit to the west. Developing nations now provide cheap, semi-disposable clothes to the west and global economic upper classes."  

I know you're vocal as well about the realities that fashion cannot simply be discussed in terms of environmental impact. It must be acknowledged as a loud echo of colonial conquest, not just in terms of extraction of labor and resources, or the outsourcing of pollutants and illness, but also in terms of culture and appropriation. Can you talk about whether or not you think this sort of recognition would reorient how companies and designers take accountability?

Sha’Mira Covington I do think that the recognition of colonialism would reorient both companies and designers, I really do. But that would mean centering things like decolonization and Critical Race Theory over the western conceptions that we currently have in the fashion industrial complex. It also means dismantling capitalism, which is racialized. And so reorienting the industry to these truths is the first step in reparative and restorative justice for the environment and beyond. But I think that recognition piece- the industry is not willing to do that.

Ayana Young I remember, you're mentioning earlier in the conversation the willingness to heal and not being ready. And I would love to explore a bit more. I mean, I know we've been talking about why you think they're not ready. If there's anything else you could say on that, I'm really curious. And then, the second part of that question would be, could you describe what a willing fashion industry would look like? What would being ready look like? And what would a truly healing process look like? Yeah, I just would love to hear how you could see this manifested.

Sha’Mira Covington It would look like decentering all of the white heteronormative voices that are currently at the forefront of fashion. It would look like listening to Native Indigenous voices. It would look like listening to Black activists. And doing that is not profitable. And so I fear that although the industry is discussing sustainability, is using it in marketing, and is seemingly interested in doing the work around it, giving up that much power means giving up also the profit and consumption aspect of the industry, which would pretty much topple the industry as we know it so what we'd have is something new. I don't think it can be achieved in our current structure.

Ayana Young Yeah, I could see that. Would you mind imagining with us what this something new would be

Sha’Mira Covington The something new would be, if it could be, conscious consumption, if it could be. So that means intentionally purchasing things that we need, that we love, not just on a whim, right? It means that, as I said, we're aiming our efforts and supporting and uplifting environmental and racial justice activists. We're taking our cues from Native and Indigenous Peoples. We’re centering Black voices in fashion. The new idea that I have, it's not even like a fashion system or a fashion industry. It's really, I guess, Indigenous Sovereignty and Black Liberation. It's how we get to Sustainability. And it's justice. And although I have like grand ideas and words for it, I don't know what that something new would be called. I don't know.

Ayana Young I think about the educational element and really weaving justice into how we consume, understanding the histories so much deeper. And buying what we need and what we actually have value for. Because I think too, with the fashion industrial complex, so much of it is like everything else in capitalism, endless growth. So there has to be a new spring collection, fall collection. There's always new, new more and more and more, and it's the pressure to buy more and more and more. And then how are we really valuing the things we have? It's almost as if things that maybe were meaningful become obsolete because the next season's clothing, or whatever it is, seems more special. And so we, as consumers, can get into these traps of the next thing to buy, rather than valuing what we do have as these special objects of culture and expression and need. I live in a very cold climate, I do need clothing. 

Sha’Mira Covington Absolutely.

Ayana Young I think about when folks spent a lot more time and had to be a lot slower when creating clothing, whether for necessity, adornment, spiritual practice and how different that relationship was to what we wore versus now.

Sha’Mira Covington Right.

Ayana Young I'm thinking back to our initial conversation around sustainability and just thinking about how we as individuals, maybe we can be sustainable, but corporations just can't. And within that recognition, it would seem that buyer awareness is our best bet, despite the reality that many argue that the burden needs to be placed upon corporations and brands. And I just wonder what your response is to this, as well as the reality that mainstream media and academic institutions and companies will never commit to changing our patterns of consumption because it inherently weakens their power in society, which is, you know, so much of what you've been saying.

Sha’Mira Covington I do believe that corporations and businesses have to be those ones changing the patterns of consumption. And I think individual awareness is crucial to our sustainability efforts. Particularly as you just said, it relates to education and fashion programs across the world to consumers it should definitely be an integral part of education and include all the dimensions of sustainability, not just environmental or ecological awareness. So that historical and encompassing education that we've been talking about all of the racial associations with that for sure. And we can do our part. But as individuals,  we didn't make the mess that we're in. Right. This has been a systemic issue for over hundreds of years. So awareness has to go beyond the individual. I think it has to permeate our culture, and it has to become the standard. 

And yes, we start with the individual reading and research. And, I mean, I personally started my journey in sustainability by reading about capitalism. And in the historical foundations of that, I recently read The Afrominimalist's Guide to Living with Less by Christine Plant. So, buyer awareness on the individual level that depends, though, on the individual having some epiphany and wanting to seek information out. And I guess if we are relying on us to do that work and not them, them being corporations and businesses, how do get people interested in sustainability widely? We have to get more of us talking about it. And that means that we need representatives or delegates in all of our communities talking about sustainability. The sustainability industry is progressive around environmental issues, but it's not very inclusive if you've noticed. I think that the individual changing of patterns of consumption, that can work, but how the industry is set up now, excludes a lot of individuals. And so we have to be having more conversations around this.

Ayana Young Yeah, absolutely. And I'm thinking about those folks who live in cities and suburbs. And I think that there's just a whole other set of pressures to participate in fast fashion and rabid consumption, as so many of our physical spaces have been commodified, like, shopping malls, for example. So just thinking about what you were saying about people in our community guiding us and teaching us, but perhaps even more so, we're living in a period where this commodification is even stronger in the digital realm. So what are your thoughts on influencer culture when it comes to the fashion industrial complex?

Sha’Mira Covington Influencer culture via social media, we now have e-shopping in the palm of our hands, right? Through e-commerce. And so we have the ability to buy whatever, whenever we want with a click, so we don't have to go to this physical space anymore. Which on the one hand is you could say is good, like we're not abusing the land anymore with large shopping malls. We can now buy more easily. But that also means that we're consuming more. And again, it's easier than ever. And I think that social media and influencers have contributed to creating this perfect environment for fast fashion to thrive, which causes greater ecological and human rights issues. 

I think, when I talk about social media and influencers and fashion, of this trend of fashion hauls, for example. This is when an influencer or content creator tries on, reviews, and shows off large quantities of clothing that they get from a retailer, and they do this all at once in their or in their content. And this is obviously encouraging overconsumption. And I know that there are also sustainable fashion influencers that are on social media, talking about upcycling and shopping secondhand, things like that. So hopefully, that continues because we don't want to encourage that overconsumption, especially with the generation that is using social media all the time. Right? Because social media operates in tandem with the fashion industrial complex, I don't know what that transition looks like from those fashion hauls of overconsumption to the more sustainable influencer and content creators.

Ayana Young Yeah, I know that there have been some people who have been vocally frustrated that social media has become a shopping app. Some people, you know, I've heard a lot of people on Instagram feel frustrated that they used to go on for more meaningful content or personal content. And now, not only is it the sponsored posts, but also it's just that's what they see in their feed. I have mixed feelings about that. I think with the large brands, it is problematic being bombarded anywhere you go, whether it's on a website, or social media, your email. Anytime you open this machine with a screen, you're being sold so much. And, you know, if you click on one pair of pants, you know that you're going to be getting a ton of ads for pants, or whatever it is. So the data collection, I mean, there's a lot of problems. Now, on the other hand, for small makers, I think it is a really potentially important source of keeping them afloat to be able to use these apps to sell directly to consumers. And maybe the relationship is even different than just consumer in that sense, because small makers, it feels a bit more personal. So I see both sides to that. With internet shopping, even before the beginning of COVID, I think it seemed like maybe the more ecological choice because you could stay at home, you didn't need to drive to a parking lot and get out of your car. And then you know, all the things that maybe we thought would be burning more fossil fuels. But I think that has really backlashed. 

I have a sense that so much internet shopping is actually making it just that much easier to buy things all the time because the stores never close. And so many of us always have our devices and are always connected to some type of internet or service. And so I just wonder if you have any thoughts on viewing the difference between brick and mortar shops and actually going and even creating some relationships with stores versus this 24-hour online shopping that I believe so many of us have started to transition into.

Sha’Mira Covington Yeah, I totally agree with you about e-commerce shopping and merchandise being at the palm of our hands all the time. I mean, and then we have to factor in like shipping all of those, all of those goods, right, that's going to use resources, we also have to think about, like workers who are now having to fulfill all these orders, especially in instances where it's 24/7, the shop doesn't close. And I've personally tried not to purchase online, from especially big corporations or big companies during the pandemic, in an effort to support local shops who were getting into the e-commerce business because of the pandemic. So I agree with you. But I think that because of COVID, that will continue to see a shift from brick and mortar to e-commerce. It's just a matter of us as conscious consumers being more careful with who we're purchasing from, and kind of prioritizing family-owned or small businesses that we have a relationship to.

Ayana Young I am really thankful that you brought up the exploitation of workers in shipping. Because I think that is something that is, I think, potentially becoming more of an issue than some of us are aware of. But it's as if these people are not just expendable but almost completely erased from our minds when we're online shopping or e-commerce shopping. And it just makes me also think about textiles and fabrics and creation, the creation of the materials for the clothing, how much of the process is forgotten and erased from the consumer's mindset when buying something. 

And I remember years ago, seeing an image of a town, I believe, in Bangladesh and the dyes for the fabrics, once the dyes were washed through the fabrics, were legally allowed to be dumped into the waterways of this town, completely polluting the land and the people who lived there. Who were, I think, in so many ways forced to have those jobs. And so I have a lot of trouble in my heart thinking about the erasure of all the people a part of the supply chain so that some of us can have another pair of shoes that we didn't need to begin with. I wonder if there's anything that you could share that you understand about the supply chain and the processes and how it's impacting and also erasing the experience of humans from the end consumer.

Sha’Mira Covington My expertise isn't in the supply chain. But I know from colleagues that, as you said, the human element of making our clothing has pretty much been erased. Because we think of the fashion industry or the making of our clothing is being mechanized, like a machine is doing that work. And I think we forget that people are interceptors, people are working the machines, people are a part of that process. And every time I think of how we're so disconnected from the human element of our clothing, I go back to the healing process. And you mentioned how we don't have that certain connection to our clothes because we have so many of them because we’re constantly able to discard them or to get more. So I agree that the human element is completely lost. And I blame it on this need to heal as consumers in a system that doesn't want us to feel that human connection.

Ayana Young This reminds me of another topic I've heard you speak about in context to sustainability and fashion is how Black history is explicitly erased from sustainability narratives, which is certainly true outside of fashion as well if we think in the mainstream portrayals around agriculture and land stewardship and ecological knowledge in this country. But, in terms of the fashion industrial complex, can you speak more to the ways in which the industry purposefully hides this history?

Sha’Mira Covington Like the broader fashion industry, the sustainable fashion industry does not do enough to provide equal opportunity and representation for all.  When someone hears the word sustainable fashion, typically, images of slim, white women in natural backgrounds are kind of the marketing that we get around sustainability. And the mainstream voices that hold the most weight are white and they’re middle to upper class. They often ignore the marginalized voices who have been doing sustainability and environmental justice work for decades. And this is because I think the industry is built on very specific ethics. So the sustainable fashion industry wants to use sustainable materials, "oh, we're interested in cleaning the oceans;" we want to recycle, we don't want to use cheap labor. But what does all that mean in terms of diversity, equity, and inclusion, which is fundamentally the most basic ethical practice of all things, right? Equality and sustainability and environmental justice, if we're to be truly inclusive, have to be explored in terms of pay, education rights, as well as visibility. So who's getting attention around these issues? And then crucially, anti-oppressive practices, the broader fashion industry is profit-driven. And sustainability narratives should really be cutting ties from that framework. We, in sustainability, should be incorporating racial justice, class justice, collective activism to reach true sustainability objectives. And so if that means leaving, what we consider the fashion industry as we know it behind, then that's what needs to happen.

Ayana Young Yeah, absolutely. Oh, gosh, well, there's so much in this conversation, to be teased out for all of us listening, and to continue to learn more and educate ourselves. Because this is a topic we can't get away from. It's so tied to our everyday existence. As we're coming to a close, I wonder if you could speak to the parts of fashion and expression and culture that excite you or that you feel drawn to? The beauty of clothing and if you believe it's also a part of our human experience that we could have a more beautiful relationship with.

Sha’Mira Covington Yeah, I for sure believe that fashion and clothing, dress is definitely a part of our human experience. My favorite parts of fashion and dress are the stories that are associated with them. So I came to fashion through my grandmother, and I love hearing specific stories about clothing, about the story behind clothing, right? Where it came from, who wore it before you got it. Those types of stories really, to me, give a spiritual connection to a piece of garment because it's connected to someone greater than me or before me. Those are my favorite, favorite parts of fashion and I've seen more and more of those stories and more and more of that close-knit relationship between clothing and spirituality and humaneness as the fashion industry has taken on sustainability. So I'm not completely despondent and pessimistic about where fashion goes from here. I think there's a vast and imaginative world out there that we can get to. I'm just wrapped up in the history in the work to do that.

Ayana Young Well, Sha'Mira, I thank you so much for your time. And I just wanted to ask one last question. If listeners want to connect with you further and continue learning from you, what's the best way to connect with you?

Sha’Mira Covington The best way to connect to me is on social media, Instagram, and Twitter. I am Sha'Mira S-H-A-M-I-R-A dot Deanne, D-E-A-N-N-E. So, ShaMira.Deanne. And then my portfolio website is ShamiraCovington.com.

Ayana Young Wonderful. Okay. Well, this has been such an important conversation as it impacts each and every one of us. And we all have a role to play, to shift our culture and not give to the corporate overlords, who are trying to just do really strange stuff to say it lightly. So thank you.

Sha’Mira Covington Yes. Thank you.

Francesca Glaspell Thank you for listening to For The Wild Podcast. The music you heard today was by Itasca, Ley Line, and Rajna Swaminathan. For The Wild is created by Ayana Young, Allie Constantine, Erica Ekrem, Emily Guerra, Francesca Glaspell, Julia Jackson, and Priya Subberwal.