Ayana Young  Hello and welcome to For The Wild Podcast, I'm Ayana Young. Today, we're speaking with Ross Reid.

Ross Reid  How do we as the masses kind of unite in our beliefs and our values of wanting to have a safe world for our children, to... of having jobs and having healthy landscapes that we don't have to worry about drought every summer and wildfires? Because all of these are symptoms of, yes, climate change, but also poor management of our landscapes. It's like how can we all unite in a way where we can influence change to the top 1% who really don't want things to change because they benefit immensely from having things the way that they are. That's where it all starts, you know, understanding and communicating.

Ayana Young  Based in the Cascadian bioregion, Ross runs a passion project called Nerdy About Nature in which he shares fast-paced, fun, informative videos about nature and the world around us as a means of breaking down barriers to access factual science-based education, while providing critical insight and constructive conversation on environmental and social issues to encourage positive changes in this world to create a more diverse, inclusive, equitable and just future for us all.

Oh, Ross, I'm so happy to be sitting here with you on this very chilly 'Is it still February?' morning. The woodstove crackling, and I feel very in the forest with you and I'm really looking forward to speaking with the fellow forest—maybe I could say lover, but I don't know yet. So we'll... yeah, we'll explore that.

Ross Reid  A dendrophile, if you will?

Ayana Young  Yes, thank you. That's it.

Ross Reid  It's great being here. It was really awesome just having a we had like 30 seconds of silence to start this and I could just hear the word fire crackling, felt so cozy., brought me right into it. Love it.

Ayana Young  It is... it was a very brisk morning here. Every morning that it's sunny and clear, which is so beautiful, I know that the cold is coming with that. 

Ross Reid  Right. And you're up north, you're out. Is that Tlingit territory?

Ayana Young  Yeah, Tlingit territory. Yeah, we haven't been getting as much snow as usual, but I guess that's the way of the world now. Every time it snows, I feel so grateful. I'm just kind of counting my blessings to be with snow and ice.

Ross Reid  Oh, man. I know it's... it's a crazy thing. I'm currently down here on Squamish Nation territory, just outside of Vancouver, BC and, god, I went up trying to go snowboarding yesterday and the snow was really thin and I made a post about it. And it's crazy how so many people can be so aware of the lack of snow and the changing seasons like the not the changing of the seasons, but the change within the seasons. It's kind of  long term thing that we're all actively witnessing and being a part of, and still there are trolls. There are people that follow me. I got hit up with so much misinformation of people just saying, Oh, this isn't the first bad winter we've had. Climate change isn't real. You're overreacting and using scare tactic... And it's just like, sometimes it's so… I don't know, debilitating, like when you're just constantly hearing that from the internet. You're like, Oh, come on, can we all just get on the same page with this? It's exhausting at times. 

Ayana Young  It is exhausting. And I think even when we do get on the same page, then the question is, how do we deal with it, and then that creates a whole other book of pages that get really complicated. I'm glad that you brought up the post because I really appreciate your platform. And I'd love to think through navigating the nuances that come with having an online platform but also wanting people to take the time to get off their screens and go outside. So how do you balance that?

Ross Reid  God I mean, you know, the inception of social media and it's like the most basic format, I think. Like the idea behind it was to get people talking and communicating with one another right? Like, that's how it all started, like I don't know, over a decade ago, 15 years. I don't know when you would call the birth of social media. But over the past five and 10 years, like five years, especially since the kind of Trump era like it's become this thing that has been so divisive across all lines. Like not just like simple political lines, but like, lifestyle and thoughts on this and that and religion and all sorts of like... It's like, anyway you can make a divide, social media seems to be doing that. So I really try to use my platform Nerdy About Nature to kind of try to not necessarily break the divide, but try to get people from across different lines talking. And doing that through an educational platform that focuses on environmental, social, climate issues... like things that teach people about general ecology and biology of the world that we all share and hopefully unites people across these different perspectives and gets people talking so that we can work together ideally using social media as a social platform. And then using that as a way to, like, educate people so that when they are out in the world experiencing it, they can form better, stronger relationships to it and a stronger connection to it so that we can, like—I don't know–kind of get back to that understanding of our place as fellow animals in this world that we all share. Our place amongst everything, you know, as a part of nature as opposed to apart from nature. So that's kind of like really the goal that I'm trying to do and I guess social media is the medium. And sometimes I question its efficacy. And whether it's worth it for my mental health because it definitely takes a toll at times when you deal with people on a daily basis who keep trying to educate people, regardless of where they come from. If that makes any sense.

Ayana Young  It really does and I'd really like to hear more about the toll it takes on your mental health if you're willing to share because I think that that is a really relatable issue that many people face. And while folks are looking for connection, they often find that debilitating pain of disconnection within the platform. And in an interview with Outside Magazine, you say, quote, "Righteousness can be reductionist. When we are only conveying some ethical or moral judgment like that everybody who works for oil and gas is evil or anyone who has ever cut down a tree is wrong, you lose the human element. It's so important to hold on to a sense of humanity. Otherwise, we're doing a disservice to these ideas and movements because we aren't taking aim at the true root of the problem. Which is the systems in which we live like capitalism, which promotes extraction and exploitation of the land and communities to maximize profit," end quote. So yeah, if you could just explore with us the toll on mental health and really, how can we find space for nuance in a world that really highlights polarization and even dehumanization? 

Ross Reid  You know, so often I get messages from people asking me how I stay positive and optimistic in this world given all that I do. Because I'm really like… From a forward facing… Like everyone, in some sense, on social media wears some type of mask, quote, unquote, you know, like, you're portraying something. And people are like, Oh, yeah, you're always so optimistic and positive, like, How do you do it?" I guess the reality is that I am human, just like all of us. And these are very difficult times to be living amongst. Like, everything is in question, you know. Not only like our attachments to what we thought life and society would be. You know, we're all told, growing up, you know, You get a job and the government helps and you do all this stuff and then, you know, you retire everything. Like our whole structure of what we thought life meant, was supposed to be, is kind of thrown up into this ambiguous questioning right now because our future is so uncertain in so many ways, if you're paying attention to the science. 

Now, the issue with that is that the people who are paying attention to science like, See this, and then they try to tell people about it because it is a big deal. But then that gets labeled as like alarmism or it's so easy for anybody who works in an industry and kind of those at the top of the industry of people who kind of run the capitalist systems we live in use that as a way to continue to divide people and spread misinformation to keep people from even agreeing on the basic science, which is going to only prolong action, that's only going to keep us in this situation for longer and kind of further their income. It's horribly depressing at times. So I don't know, when you look at a bigger picture of it all, I try to do the best that I can on a personal level to, like, stay grounded and rooted with my surroundings, the people around me, my dog... You know, get out on the land. It's so easy to get sucked into that world of division and feed into that system that has just kind of keeps us from talking together and working with one another as a means of actually creating any positive change. Try to get out on the land and remember, like what it's all worth, you know.

Thinking about that quote that you read... Yeah, so many of the issues we face are boiled down with different sects of society. At least in, like, the media, and how things tend to be painted. In an issue like logging, per se, this age old issue since the war in the woods here in Canada, and then down in the States was the timber wars on an Oregon. So it… kind of like the mid 90s, you know. It was this classic thing where it was, like, pitched as loggers versus environmentalists, people trying to save the animals versus saving jobs. Anytime you heard about it in the media, that's how it was pitched. It was pitched as this like grassroots people against people in a community when the reality is, at the end of the day, we all want the same thing. Whether you're a logger or an environmentalist or however you want to identify yourself or somebody else, we all want to be living healthy, happy lives. We all want to have space to explore and be part of the outdoors, be connected to nature. We want to bring our kids there. We want our kids to leave happy, healthy lives. We all want the same things yet we're stuck in these arbitrary arguments with one another over issues that are really up to the people at the top to, like, create true solutions. We, as citizens in a quote, unquote, democracy, whether or not you believe it's actually a functional democracy is a whole other subject. But we theoretically should have the ability to be like, Hey, this system isn't working. You, the government, we need you to look out for the people here because we are all suffering collectively. Whether it's job loss in the logging industry or whether it's habitat loss and environmental degradation on the environmental landscape of things, we're all suffering because of the way this industry is operating. But instead of creating that change, the people who run the industry who are also tied in with the lobbyists, the current policy—everybody up top kind of keeps the people down below bickering and fighting with one another and preventing any real change from actually happening because it's just so easy to galvanize people and keep the masses fighting with one another instead of directing your energy up top. 

And so that is a horribly daunting thing, especially in this age of social media and technology. Like everything is just so easily manipulated and thrown into the fire. Like you can just take one thing somebody says, make a meme of it, twist it and turn it and then like you'll have people who are just who will, if you… they subscribe to an idea, they will stick with that, till the very end instead of listening to reason. And, in fact, in science, you know, the same science that gives them the phones that they argue on. They will use it to the ends to argue that, you know, that climate change isn't real. That different forestry practices aren't better for the ecosystems while also creating jobs. If you're just stuck in that mindset of thinking, you only know what you know, and unable to learn and adapt and see the world through new eyes, it's endlessly destructive. I don't know. I'm kind of getting overwhelmed even thinking about it.

Ayana Young  It's all good. It's impossible to answer, you know, the most challenging questions of our time succinctly. I think it's—

Ross Reid  Yeah—

Ayana Young  How stream of consciousness works. We're thinking and guessing and hoping while we try to find a way out of the madness.

Ross Reid  To that point with the way that social media has kind of trained all of us, even myself included. In like, oh, like I feel guilty for not being able to answer you succinctly here, as my mind rambles down these endless wormholes of despair about the reality of the world we live in. You know, we're all trained to have… want to have just like a quick 30 sec amazing soundbite that, like, is good and it packs a punch and it goes viral and all that stuff. We all want to condense things into a short, easy to digest thing. And that's for the most part, what I try to do with my videos, but they're like, you know, a minute, minute and a half to five minutes sometimes and I try really hard to break down very complex, nuanced issues into synth sound bites for people. But the reality is… Is that in order to create any meaningful solutions, we have to have a very deep understanding of these issues. And that requires the ability to have a lot of nuanced long winded conversations, hear all the different angles, and be able to take in a lot of things that you can just easily dumbed down to a 30 second sound byte.

Ayana Young  It's challenging because we need to meet people where they're at and grab people's attention. And attention span is so short, but then at the same time, these issues aren't black and white and they need so much discussion and room for patience and room for changing of our understandings of things. Openness takes time, it takes trust. 

It's interesting that you bring up the logging debacle. I was so anti-logging for so long because I grew up on the West Coast and I was exploring as a young adult, what were these great old growth temperate rainforests of California, Oregon, and Washington and BC. And seeing the checkerboard of clear cuts and plantation forests and then slivers of old growth that I would search for trying to find the last remnants. And when I'd get into the old growth forests, I would feel so at ease and enchanted and mesmerized and intrigued and comforted and this is it. This is worth living for. This is everything. And so any type of tree cutting I was so angry about and I can understand that I don't blame myself. And then as I've gotten older and I have been working in rural communities for the last decade now really realizing the nuances. I try to hang out with industry people because I don't want to be somebody who just sits in the ivory tower or sits on a couch and says you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong when I really don't actually understand what they're thinking or their worldview and I think it actually makes my, whether you want to call it activism stronger to understand other people and not just alienate. I was in my little cabin and this tree cutter came over and maybe I was crying about tree cutting and they were like, Well, you know, you heat your house with wood, don't you?—Well, yeah. And pointed up at the beams like, These are trees. You know, of course I knew that. And of course I know I'm implicated. But it was really so clear of okay, oh, how do I face this that I live in a structure built of trees, and I'm being warmed by trees, and I'm cooking on trees -- like the pain and the grief of what that means in this time because we don't do it sustainably. And so yeah, how do we even get there? 

I can tell you work so hard to put these really complex stories into short segments, grab their attention. You keep their attention for the whole time and hopefully they walk away with an interest to dig deeper. I'm wondering if you see your work meeting people where they're at, but also maybe encouraging people to rethink what they pay attention to?

Ross Reid  Yeah, there's this one, quote, Forgive me for the length of my letter. I would have been more concise if I had more time, kind of basically summarizes it. Even me talking right now, like, Oh, man, I'm being so wordy. I'm talking about so many different things and jumping around following like, wherever my mind is going. Whereas in the videos, I really try to take the time and consolidate and distill a lot of thoughts about multiple different things and try to distill it into a nice, easy-to-capture sound bite for peopl, because I know that attention spans are waning. Like people have so little patience for anything that is slow conversation, especially on the medium of social media. When you're actively scrolling through things like you're not going to stop and listen to a long winded, slowly spoken 10 minute video. But if I'm talking really fast, it sucks you in. And it's unfortunate that I've kind of had to go that way. It's unfortunate that that's where society is, but at the same time, it's a great kind of skill and place to be.

[Musical break]  

Ayana Young  If you're trying to encourage people to rethink what they're paying attention to. You know, if you're talking about a big leaf maple, maybe somebody who's walked by a big leaf maple for 100 times never thought about it the way that you're inviting people into something different. 

Ross Reid  Yeah, I think there's multiple facets of it. And the one that it started with the major one is just getting people to be aware of what's around them. So that's like general plant ID, fun facts about things that they see all around them that they maybe hadn't thought about, or certainly hadn't thought about since second or third grade. You know, when you kind of learn about what photosynthesis is at a very basic age and Oh yeah, plants take energy from the sun and, you know, convert sugars. And then you kind of... you never think about that in life unless you're going into like the sciences and biology or something like that. Like for everybody else, it's like you learned at once and then you tuned it out. So being able to like respark, reignite that spark of passion for people. They'll think, Wow, how incredible it really is that a tree or anything that has photobiomes it, like, is able to take energy from the sun, to break down water and carbon dioxide to form complex carbohydrates and releasing oxygen, like, That is insane. And so when you can instill like little bits of wonder back in people, it changes the way that people look at the world. So then you're walking around the world, and suddenly you notice the things that you hadn't noticed before. Because you like, Oh my god, that's a big leaf maple and I can't believe that they have, you know, canopy roots way up in their crowns that will punch out into like little pockets of mosses. All those epiphytes they store on those branches, and they will actually use that to survive during the summer months. That's incredible. You know, it's like if more people knew about all these fun facts, it would change our relationship to the world around us. So that's kind of like the first big pillar there. 

The second one that's kind of evolved from this project being what it is, is just trying to engage people in constructive conversation again. I say again, but I actually don't know when that has ever really been happening. But I guess trying to engage people in constructive conversation. Because so often on social media and the internet, it's easy to, like, if you see something you disagree with, it's anonymous. You can write some hateful comments, hit send, and disappear and never have to deal with it. Things that you would never say to people's faces, right? 

So I really try—and certainly it was easier when the account was smaller. Now it's pretty overwhelming, but I really tried to engage with people, whether in the comments or the DM section. Like try to, like… When they have genuine questions and aren't just trying to like troll or stir the pot,  I will really try to constructively engage and get people talking so that we can reach better understanding and try to have patients where I can to like, really walk people through these things. Because the more we're all able to understand and know about the world around us and everything that we share then... That, like, I mentioned, it changes our relationship to everything. So really just trying to get people talking and communicating, even when we don't see eye to eye on everything. And I think that's kind of the beauty of it, you know, like, we've been so trained, like, I said, to kind of be in these silos based on values or religion or whatever it is. And we don't look at anybody else or talk to anybody else like this kind of like, quote unquote, like "New Age tribalism," You know, you stick to your group of people, and you don't talk to anybody else. 

But that's not how society works and functions, like we're not isolated. Like we all shop at the same grocery store. Like we all are part of society. So you have to talk to people. You have to work with people and engage with people. And I'm trying to get people to do that in a way that is accepting of the fact that we might not agree on everything. We might not come from the same backgrounds. We might have differing perspectives on things, but we can still work together. We can still like work to figure things out. 

Your example before about recognizing that you live in a wood home and you burn wood for energy, that's like a great awareness to have. And one of the things that I've tried  to bring up with people and challenge people to think about is it's yes, it's like that for wood. And trees are a very easy way to see that our resource extraction, colonial capitalist society, takes a thing, turns it into something else, a commodity, and then it becomes part of daily life. But that same thing holds true with anything in your life, whether it be you know, the metal knobs on your dresser, the glass in a coffee cup, the paint on the walls, like the plastic, you know, like all of the fossil fuels that were fossilized 1000s of millions of years ago, all that comes from the earth. And we're using all of these things as resources, and they don't ever go away, you know, they were all still part of this system. You can't just throw it in the dump and turn a blind eye and it goes away. Like it is always part of us. It's always part of the world. Being able to be aware of where these resources come from, the socio economic kind of structures that keep that in place that have got us to that point, I think is a really good thing to be aware of. Because that's where you can use that knowledge to talk with other people of different perspectives, and find a new way of going about it. 

So when we talk about logging… Even in everything that I do, like I'm not anti-logging. I'm anti- doing it in a way that destroys the ecological function of the world that we live in and biodiversity and community. I'm anti-clearcut logging, because there is no way to do that sustainably. If you look at the people who justify clearcut logging, say like, Oh, it replicates natural disturbances like fires and yada, yada. And you're like, okay, that might be true, and like a very broad, like, you know, bird's eye view. But then you get down to the nitty gritty and this is where you get into the nuance where it's like, okay, clear cuts, wildfires… If you're trying to say that they're the same... like a clear cut removes all the large woody debris and leaves the fine woody materials on the forest floor here, which sparks more wildfires. Whereas a wildfire tends to burn the fine fuels and leave the bigger woody debris—you know, tree trunks and things standing—which become wildlife trees and serve home as the forest kind of regenerates. So it's like, on the nuanced level, it's like, okay, that's not the same. But even if like, well, okay, well, we'll go along with this, this excuse you're using... Those wildfires only happen in certain ecosystems. Fire is a natural part of every forest ecosystem. But it happens on different timescales and small plots of land like relatively small, because natural forest ecosystems are resilient to wildfire. So it would happen, you know, every 80 to 100 years in the interior of the continent, maybe more frequently, like on like 20 to 40 year timescales. 

And on the coast, like where I normally live out on Vancouver Island in the Chilnuth territory, those fires... that's a forest ecosystem that has never historically had wildfires at all. So never, in those ecosystems like clear cutting is not a natural way for a forest to experience a disturbance. And when you look at the frequency and scale of which that's happened, almost 90% of the forest all across Turtle Island—that's North America, United States and Canada—have been leveled to the ground in the method of a clear cut, quote, unquote, in just the past 150 years. When historically these wildfires like any disturbances that look similar to that would only be 5 to 10% of the landscape at any given time on hundreds of your timescale. So it's like, this is not a natural thing that we're doing. There's no way to justify that. We shouldn't be continuing to do that. 

So you look at that one little bit like,vOkay, clear cutting is bad. But that's not the same as saying, And all logging. It's saying how can we work with the fallers, work with the people who work on the ground here who are trying to feed their families, who are trying to pay their mortgages, who are trying to continue to live and exist in society and want to live a life. This is a job, this is an ends to a means. How can we work in a way where we change the economic model, so we're no longer having to clear cut in order to get what... We can do closed canopy selective harvesting things that keep the ecological and hydrological function of these forest ecosystems intact while still being able to use it as a resource. Because humans are, like I've mentioned, are wild animals. We've always been active parts of these ecosystems, not apart from them. We will always need and have a use for wood. But how can we do it differently? Where we can maintain jobs and communities where we don't have, you know, the boom and bust of logging towns that is so familiar in the Cascadian bioregion. If you drive anywhere from BC, down through Washington, Oregon, and Northern California, there are so many little ghost towns of what used to be booming cultural hubs where logging happened in the 60s and 70s. But like, you know, unrestrained clear cutting, and then all of a sudden they're out of it, and the economy crashes, and people have to move out. People lose their jobs. Those who stay, you know, struggle to survive. Drug addiction becomes a thing. It's like... It's not a sustainable way to be doing business. 

So the more that we can understand, you know, the nuance of the ecological functions, the nuance of the biodiversity, the nuance of all the kinds of sciencey bits that like, relate to our relationship with the world—as well as the social economic things that kind of create the system that we live in—we can find ways to talk across different party lines to unite on kind of these, the reality you know, the science. Be like, Okay, we know that this doesn't work. We know that this doesn't work. Let's try something different. Let's work together to find a solution that works for everybody. That's kind of like, the meat of like, what I'm really trying to get people doing... Is, like, step one, becoming aware of your surroundings. Step two, talking with people about the way that we use our surroundings so that we can do it better. How do we, as the masses, unite in our beliefs and our values of wanting to have a safe world for our children, of having jobs and having healthy landscapes that we don't have to worry about drought every summer and wildfires? Because all of these are symptoms of, yes, climate change, but also poor management of our landscapes. It's like how can we all unite in a way where we can influence change to the top 1% who really don't want things to change because they benefit immensely from having things the way that they are? And that's, that's where it all starts, you know, understanding and communicating.

Ayana Young  I hear ya, It is... It's a real—

Ross Reid  That was a long winded tangent, but I hope I brought that back. 

Ayana Young  No, it actually revitalized me. It touched that part that I'm like, yes, yes, yes. Like we need to... We need to always circle back around to how we get out of it. Because there will be nothing left, if we don't stop now. And we're already... Gosh we're so on the edge. You see the numbers and it's 4% of all old growth redwoods left. You know, it's a very, very small percentage always under 10% of whales, forests, you know, everything that is so life giving but heartfelt things— That’s not... They're not things, they're creatures, they're beings, their kin, our comrades, our lovers, our family, and we're losing them so quickly to badly designed systems. And it is complicated to restructure the systems but ultimately, what are we going to do like that is our job. That is what we are here to do is to learn how to— 

Ross Reid  Be a part of it.

Ayana Young  I like to believe that we're here because we're trying to be in right relationship. Because I know that our mental health is better when we're in right relationship. Our relationships with other humans are stronger. Like everything, I think benefits when we are in the flow of reciprocity. And when we get out of that it's horror, it's terror. I mean, the people on top that are making the billions, they got problems. Just because they have all this money, that doesn't suddenly mean that they're not dealing with drug addiction, depression, relationships falling apart…

Ross Reid  They can just afford to not have to pay attention to it, you know. I don't think you're thinking about depression when you're on a yacht, maybe. I don't know, I've never been on a yacht.

Ayana Young  I think there's a lot of unseen consequences of wealth accumulation. I think it actually... Maybe it... Yeah, sure. Maybe the yacht distracts people from their depression but the depression itself isn't gone... Like the disconnection from one another... Denialism takes a toll. It takes a toll to be so separate from 99% of everybody else. There's distractions on all levels from the pain. And let's just say we're believing that this pain is from disconnection from nature. I'd love to hear your thoughts on what it means to connect with nature in times like these. And you know, there's the romanticized versions. There's the realities. I mean, there's different realities for everybody. So much of what I've been saying is, oh, they're disconnected from nature. We got to reconnect. But those words, it almost kind of feels shallow, or maybe not shallow, but what does that even mean? 

Ross Reid  That's an interesting concept, because the way that I see it, it's really difficult to do it authentically in a capitalist system. The idea of capitalism kind of originated in kind of stems from like old religious ideas, whether or not you're Christian, or however, whatever religion you believe in, capitalism kind of originated in this idea that the world was created for mankind, for white people, basically, European, white people. And everything was theirs to use to, like, use as a resource, to commodify, to live the best life that they could, and they started putting value on things. And that has just kind of snowballed into colonialism, you know, where you went to foreign lands, and you said, Oh, these people aren't really people, we can take their land. We can take the resources. We can do all this. We can generate more wealth for us, so we can live our best life, to appease God's desires so that we can go on… and that's kind of like, the root of capitalism. Like, you know, even if you go for a walk, you know, you're... We're trained to think like time is money. How much time did I spend in the woods today? Oh, that's like an hour I could have gotten paid. You know, what's… You know, we talked about natural capital, and like, that's just trying to fit these natural things into a capitalist society. It's like, how do we give a tree a monetary value as a standing thing? You know, how do we look at the natural services it provides from, you know, retaining like the riverbanks to giving us oxygen and filtering water? Like, how do we put capital on that in order? It's... It's such a broken way of looking at the world, because no matter how you cut it, it intrinsically separates us from the natural world. 

And this is like an idea that, like you see all through the states and through Canada…Like the idea of national parks is kind of, like, the classic conservation method. This idea of like, pristine nature of pristine wilderness, inherently separates not people from the landscape, necessarily, but like Western people because Western society doesn't view themselves as part of nature. So it's like, Oh, we're gonna set this aside as the reserve, and nobody's allowed to go in there or touch it because that's nature. And we're people, and we live outside of nature in our homes that are definitely not part of nature. Even though as you mentioned before, it's all made from wood and natural things. Like it's all… Like we are part of nature. 

And when you look at it, like how many Indigenous peoples have been forcefully evicted, and massacred, and removed from those places, from those sites, from Yosemite, you know, so that this could be a park with no quote unquote, people even though people are and always have been active parts of these ecosystem. We are animals. We are all kin, and that, like we all have… We all share the same common ancestor of life that was born on this planet and then through various, you know, evolutionary processes of selection and natural selection and all sorts of different things, we ended up with fungi, or funga, fauna, and flora. You know, we have plants, animals, and fungi, all these different things like, but we all are kin. We're all siblings. We all come from that same bit of life. It's not like they were just planted by different things. Like, again, like going back to religion, whatever God you believe in… Even a lot of like Christian beliefs nowadays kind of center on the evolutionary thing. Like they've accepted this as a scientific thing because science is rooted in the reality of the world we live in. Like, there is no way to deny some of these things, these processes. So that separation is something that is kind of like inherently built into the systems that we've got today that I've kept kind of arisen from belief systems. And it's really difficult to break that. I, again, I don't know if we actually can within that system, but I do think it is incredibly important to reflect upon those systems as best as you can, as best as one can and learn to, like, create your own, like, connections, your own culture to it. 

So often today, like speaking as a white cis male from settler descent on Turtle Island here... So many people within our society are displaced from where they came from, whether they were taken here against their will, or whether they came here trying to seek a new life. Like we've left our short term kind of ancestral heritages and cultures. And maybe you bring some element of culture with you from like food to religious practices or whatever, but like, none of that comes from the lands that we're on. So I feel like as a broad societal statement, a lot of us are grasping for things. And within that there is this really easy tokenism of like a lot of Indigenous culture that people will run to and grasp onto they'll get some sage and not think about like the ethical way that that sage was harvested, the spiritual connections to like Navajo, or anything like that and, and use that to like, oh, sage, a room and, and it's kind of like, like just grasping for things that feel more authentic than what we know, because we are so displaced as people. Like we don't have that rooting to the culture. But just because you're not from a place, I would argue, doesn't mean that you can't become naturalized to a place, doesn't mean that you can't learn to create your own connection to those lands. And I think that starts with people getting out on those lands, reflecting on the way that our society in this capitalist system has kind of shaped our mindset around—you know, created all these attachments to how we think things should be. And getting out and just enjoying the view—not taking your phone, not taking a watch, not taking anything beyond like what you need to exist in those elements—and, like, being amongst it. And like, if you're hungry, like try to find a berry… Like learning how to forage, like learning how to like see the reciprocity and the connection to our fellow kin and recognize that like we're all here to support each other, regardless of what gender, class, race, species, like all the things that we use to divide, you know, not only our species, but like separate us from everything else on a broader sense. 

Like we're all a bunch of raving [unknown], who think that, you know, humans are above everything else. This anthropocentric kind of lens. And like we are not above everything else, we are a part of it. So I think that getting out grounding and whatever way that you can, feet on the dirt, breathing in the air, drinking the water, like really finding home in the ground under your feet and the lands on which you live, the water that you drink. Like all of that gives you a greater connection to it. And then with that connection comes you know stewardship or responsibility to protect it and a responsibility to act in ways that see its health being like its health into the future, when threatened by things like, you know, the colonial capitalist system we live in. When industry comes in and wants to build a mine or, you know, cut down the forest in your backyard like it... that connection is what's going to motivate you to stand up and do something to protect it ,to challenge the system that we live in that is so hell bent on dividing us and keeping us separate from that.

[Musical break]  

Ayana Young  Wanting to kind of stick with the reconnection, disconnection to nature theme, I thought we could dig a little bit into the contradictions of outdoor recreation, industry, culture and in an interview with Outside Magazine you say quote, "Especially coming from an outdoor sports background, a lot of my experiences in the outdoors have been shallow and self centered. But skiing amongst the trees made me want to understand the environments I was recreating in. I wanted to know the ecology of those places, so I learned more. It gave me a deeper sense of companionship for those spaces because I was no longer just looking at them as expendable things for me to jump off of or ski around. And with greater connection comes responsibility," end quote. So I thought you could respond with maybe sharing a bit of your personal history with outdoor recreation, and then maybe how was the outdoor recreation industry contributed to a more shallow or even extractive relationship to the outdoors?

Ross Reid  Yeah, that's a good one. I mean, I've often wrestled with this and had conversations with friends and stuff about whether or not recreation is an extractive resource. In many cases, it definitely fits the bill. I can't say that many industries or many aspects of the industry really give back to the land and those who live amongst them, aside from just the people. 

 Yeah, I mean, I was super fortunate to have grown up skiing at a young age. You know, my dad's side of the family, that's what they did. So when I was like two years old, I was on skis. And we owned a family ski cabin with like me and my three cousins' families, and we all just every week, and we just packed that thing full of stuff, like 18 people. So it's like me and all my cousins, just every weekend going up there and skiing. And so it was very much like a part of who I was. And it was great. You know, some of my favorite memories come from that time. It was physically active. It was great for mental health. It was the thing where I first kind of really discovered independence, like, I could pick my own line down a mountain. I could do my own thing. And then like the only thing that was resting on whether or not I got down, there was myself, you know. It wasn't like a team sport, necessarily where there was like all the pressure on you. It was... 

I feel like it's a really good place for people to find and know themselves. Skiing, biking, hiking, any sort of outdoor thing, it's like when you're out there with just you, like relying just on yourself to do a certain thing, it's really empowering in a way. And a lot of there's a lot of things in society that don't give you that same, that same aspect of that sort of empowerment. So it's really great like that. 

But at the same time, there is no denying that hypocrisy. Skis are not environmentally cheap to produce, nor is the outerwear, the goggles, any of the stuff that you wear, especially like in the 90s, when I was growing up. No one had wool, it was all synthetic, you know. And like now it's better because there are a lot of really good wool companies out there that are getting back to natural fibers. But skis and outerwear is still horribly environmentally expensive to create. Not only that, but then like the access element. You know, a majority of people do their riding from lift access stuff and then they're the goal, you know, the glorified thing in the industry is to be able to afford to go on a heli ski trip somewhere, or cat skiing or something, or fly around the world to go visit all these amazing places. And like, I have done a bit of that, you know,. Like I've gone I've been to Japan a few times.. love Japan, like the culture, the snow, everything's incredible. I've partaken in that system. 

But I think like for a lot of people, that's where it stops. You know, like, that's kind of like, the end goal is this like consumption based thing where like, I'm gonna ski around the world, and I'm gonna ski the best pow, I'm gonna make it I'm gonna like... It's like a very kind of greedy thing. Like, Oh, I scored those conditions. The surf was firing that day. It was just me out.. You know, and everybody's kind of racing to do this thing in a very highly competitive way but not in your kind of standard, you know, football, like Broncos versus the Chiefs. I don't know, I don't know, football. That was a terrible analogy. But you know what I mean? 

Like, it's not like that same kind of competition dynamic, yet the hypocrisy of using all these fossil fuels and resources to do this for a very selfish pursuit is often overlooked. So for me, like, you know, I grew up not only going skiing, but like, you know, I was out playing in the mud and like, lived close to a forest. And in the 90s, that was still when you could, like, go outside and play in the mud and in the forest behind school during recess. I don't think they let kids do that anymore. So like, I kind of already had like a connection to nature in the woods and things and then going out and kind of having a background in biology and continuing to read about things and ecology and understand things like gave me a really amazing lens to kind of go to those places through and see like, you know, the evolving ecology of mountainous regions. And like, that's, that's awesome. That was like part of what birthed this whole Nerd About Nature project for me.

I think there's a lot of room for people to continue to do that because even as is… Like the industry is still a very shallow one. Like, it's amazing because it gets people out onto the lands and gets them forming connections, which as I've mentioned, is kind of the basis of any sort of stewardship for it. Like you have to care about something in order to want to protect it, to want to keep it in a good, healthy state. So that's amazing, but the way that we're going about it is still just not that thoughtful. And I think, you know, there's a lot of Band-Aid solutions that, you know, big companies are trying to offer. Like, you know, heli ski companies will offset their emissions so they're quote unquote, carbon neutral. But it's like, dude, you're burning fucking jet a fuel for hours, like there's no way you're carbon neutral. Ski resorts will be powered by, you know, biofuel or wind power or something, which is like, okay, cool, that's a start. Sure. But that's still just like looking at the mechanical operations with things like what's the impact on the lands when you have hundreds of 1000s of people coming up, spending hundreds of dollars a day, like it's ridiculously expensive. So it's like, again, all kind of feeding into that capitalist mindset. 

I think there's a lot to be rethought with, again, like wilderness areas, quote, unquote, wilderness. These wild lands these ways, ways to get onto the land and do things and bring community into it. You have to also remember that all of these sports, well, yeah, most of them, I would say like 99 percent of them are still happening in taking place on stolen Indigenous lands. And very little of that actually goes back to supporting the Indigenous communities who have stewarded those landscapes since time immemorial—you know, for literally 1000s and 1000s of years. So I think there's a lot of opportunity moving forward, like rethinking things. 

And one of the things that I'm really strongly advocating for is Indigenous run and led tourism operations and tribal park areas where it's managed by the local nations, and the proceeds to that go to supporting that nation to give them you know, a means of surviving in a post colonial or, sorry, is still a colonial world. Like a world that is not inherently rigged for them to succeed, you know, like these, these communities. So doing that in a way that helps support communities, so they can continue to grow and thrive and steward these lands in a way that doesn't involve them, you know, extracting the resources in a more material way in the form of logging or mining. And doing it in a way that supports culture. So, recreation isn't an extract of resource on like the invisible stuff, you know. Like, sucking the soul and the life out of an area by loving it to death, you know. Like, we need to be able to show restraint and use foot power traffic, you know, biking up places. Like I think it would be amazing to have a ski area where there's like logging roads, and you could bike to the trail entrance, and then ski tour up and then ski down. And it's like, yeah, it's like a longer process, that's a lot more work. But like you're forming a much more genuine and authentic connection to the land, instead of just using it as a resource. As like looking for pillow lines and downed trees to ride and all sorts of different features. Like, obviously, you're still looking for that, because that's like, where the fun of it is. It's not just in that take take take mentality. And it's like, you have to like work for it and earn your turns. 

I think there's a lot that we can learn, going back to the reciprocity of things and learning how to connect to these lands and better steward them. And I think that the more you understand about, as I mentioned previously, our social economic systems and the ecology of an area, you realize that there's no way that capitalism really works better these environments, these ecosystems. You know, we have to find a new way of thinking about the way that we interact with it and like, use it for social, social, personal mental health, all sorts of different values beyond the myopic resource extraction model,

Ayana Young  Hmm, just kind of sitting in the complexity with you, and feeling into the many pieces and my origin story of how I found out about you, which was during the Fairy Creek blockade, and so maybe we could end on taking some time to hear about your involvement with that movement, and how you see land defense as central to your work... maybe any updates on the Fairy Creek front.

Ross Reid  Let's see, for those who are unfamiliar Fairy Creek Blockades is now, today, the single largest act of civil disobedience in all of Canadian history. And this is a really interesting... It's an interesting thing, just as a tangent before we get into all of this, like, I love how COVID was the taste of socialism that we needed to really kind of, like, get some change going, you know. Like without COVID... Like, I know, it was horrible and miserable for a lot of people and locked down was awful. But like, that was the first time people were kind of broken free of their daily nine to five grind and can actually think about things and be like, Hey, you know, you shouldn't treat people like George Floyd like this.  Like, Let's have a Black Lives Matter kind of uprising, you know... like that would have never happened if it wasn't for COVID. 

Same with the Fairy Creek Blockades. Like there's a lot of things that I think society was finally able to breathe from, like, just existing in this rigamarole, this rat race of capitalism that we've created. And be like, okay, hold on. What are we doing? This doesn't make sense. Let's put our foot down and stand up against it. So like, that's amazing. I think that's just like a little asterisk of like, yeah, see, socialism can be a good thing. Like, look at the way the French deal with things. It's like when things go wrong, like, they riot. They use their voice because they can't afford to. They're not living necessarily paycheck to paycheck. They have social support systems that ensure they're going to be able to survive, even if they miss a day at work. 

So Fairy Creek was this thing that  happened during the pandemic, where, you know, of all the watersheds on Vancouver Island, most---a majority----of them have been logged, again, clearcut logged. And on the southern part of Vancouver Island, there was this... There's one watershed known as Fairy Creek and it's just... it's in Pacheedaht Territory just outside of Port Renfrew on the southern tip of Vancouver Island, and it was slated to be logged by a private company known as Teal Jones. And at the same time, this report had been put out by doctors Rachel Holt, Karen Price, and Dave Doss. Who, again, wouldn't have had the time to put the report out if it hadn't been for COVID. They credit the COVID lockdown as the thing that gave them the time to put the report out and that is basically the thing that triggered this whole movement because in that report they detailed the lack of old growth forest remaining in the province. 

And I could go into the weeds here on the numbers with you, but basically, it's like 2.7% of the most highest productivity forest that ever exists in the province is remaining. There's a lot of nuances with old growth definitions, you know, high productivity versus low productivity. Again, I could go into the weeds of this, but I'm just going to keep this very overview. Basically, the government likes to say there's a lot of old growth left when in reality, you know, they say about 20% of forest is old growth, but a reality of majority that is low productivity, old growth that hasn't been logged, isn't threatened to be logged because it's in areas like high alpine environments or boggy marshes. And all of the really good big massive old growth forests—the thing that you think about when you picture an old growth forest--you know, those all lie in valley bottoms, riverbeds, like very easy access places where a lot of development has happened. You know, like the townships of Vancouver and Victoria... Like, those were initially logging towns and ports where logging occurred and then, you know, they continued to build outward. All that old growth.... like it's a very slim percentage left, very little is standing and even less of it is protected. 

So this whole movement got people out into the woods at Fairy Creek protesting blockading stopping logging from happening and then it exposed a really horrible dark side of the colonial system we live in with the RCMP, just violently abusing land defenders in the most horrific of ways—covering badges, no accountability, covering their faces, literally beating people, pepper spraying people. Horrible, horrible, horrible videos started coming out of the woods about all of this because this is an area where there wasn't self service, everything there was like a delay on it and, and the things that were coming out of there was just… It was awful. It was like incredibly depressing to know that there was like that little old growth left and then to also know that the industrial arm that was trying to log, and is still trying and is still logging the last of that old growth, is so heavily supported by the colonial government that exists in this province ,in this country, on this entire continent. And, like, that's a really difficult thing to grasp. I didn't go to the blockades because I know myself and I know I have a big mouth, and I can run it really well. And so I just was like, if I go in, I'm gonna get arrested. And so I abstained from going because I was going through some legal stuff, and I just couldn't have risked it. 

But I had just started this amazing little account called Nerdy About Nature and I was talking about trees and all sorts of stuff and old growth that had been something dear to me. So it became like the perfect medium to actually use that platform to educate people on all of the nuances of the numbers that I've mentioned previously. And the situation and, like, offering solutions, you know. And so that's kind of been an ongoing thing where I've, like, you know, was really active in getting people engaged in these conversations and activating them on a policy level to, like, sign waivers and petitions and go rally and, you know, use their voice in, again, a so called democracy. Theoretically, we should be able to use our voices to stand up for the things we believe in. And I'm still kind of on that plate. I'm still offering solutions and still doing solutions videos but this is a twofold tangent here. Social media only rewards divisiveness. If I post a video that is like ranting about something that's wrong with the world, it sees millions of views. If I post a video that is solutions-based and it's like, Hey, here's a viable solution where we can maintain jobs and economy and build communities, strengthen our ecosystems, do all this stuff, it sees maybe a couple 100 views. It's ridiculous how the algorithm favors content that drives conflict. And so that's really annoying and depressing to still kind of like exist with today and to still trying to find ways to challenge the algorithm so I can make something that like gets people thinking in a positive, constructive manner and get seen but without being too positive and optimistic that nobody sees it at all because the algorithm doesn't favor that. 

And then also now to be what is it 2024? So yeah, four years down the line since Fairy Creek began, and to see the lack of integrity in the government doing what they said they were going to do. Broad overview of it is that they've basically started a lot of really slow working processes that makes it look like they're doing a lot to actively protect things. And they are doing things in the realm of, like, supporting Indigenous nations and taking control of their land back their land and resources and working with those who have chosen to defer logging on their territories to create sustainable ways to protect those forests into the future. It's amazing, but it's still just like a sliver. Like, for example, in October, they announced.... The province of British Columbia announced that they would give 300 million to sustaining these nations who chose to defer logging on their territory for the next—I think it's a 10 year thing, so $300 million for 10 years. Meanwhile, the province still subsidizes the clear... Like, companies, private and public companies, that do clear cut logging on these lands $365 million every year. So it's like, yes, it's great that you're supporting Indigenous, like, landback and sovereignty and giving them access again to the resources that you stole from them 150 years ago, but you're still, also, still can like allowing the system to continue as it is. And meanwhile, everything that's like not outside of Fairy Creek.... Like, Fairy Creek kind of stole the limelight. Like everything north island has just been obliterated. You know, anywhere... Anywhere where the industry saw could be threatened, where they're logging tenures could be threatened in the next couple of years, they just went full steam ahead. And they're not even like... They just like are clearing the land. Like cutting everything and leaving it on the ground. And you're going to take it out later, because they know as long as they cut it and it's on the ground, they can still have access to it later. 

So it's like, just created a rush of more old growth logging. You know, old growth logging actually went up in 2021 versus down like the government had said it was. And so it's created all these other things. They've quelled the protests and they've quelled the uprising by saying that they're doing stuff. And the stuff they're doing has its merits, but it's happening so slowly, when the real thing that needs to happen is just like a hard stop on the industry so we can reassess what the heck is going on. So we can take a look and take stock of things. Every time you hear an update on how much old growth is remaining, the real number is less than that because they've logged it since they've done that. Many of the deferrals that they deferred, a majority of those were logged. So it's just... I don't know. This is where me, again, as like a human, experiencing human emotions, struggles to be optimistic sometimes. 

I appreciate you for sharing that bit of empathy towards the 1% earlier and like, that's amazing. Like, I'm trying to channel that now. Like, how can I be empathetic to people in the system? But it's like the system is still largely failing the people. And how do you, like, short of a revolution... Like how do you change that? And in a system that is, like, designed and supposed to be one that suits the needs of the people, where we're supposed to have equal voices for every individual, they still only listen to the voices of the corporations. And, like, that's like, a horribly depressing reality to come to terms with and I'm still wrapping my head around it, still trying my best to be a part of these conversations and push for change. And I still hold strong in thinking that the best way to do that is through education and through empowering people through knowledge so that they can have more nuanced, well rounded, understanding conversations with people so that we can reach solutions. But at some point, those solutions aren't ever going to happen if the system doesn't allow them to. And that's kind of where we're at right now.

Ayana Young  Mmmhmmm. I mean, I think that the rage and the anger towards the 1% is valid, and in ways beautiful, because it's acknowledging the destruction that they are leading. I think for me that empathy comes in with trying to psychologically and spiritually understand what is really going on here. And I'm interested in like understanding these humans—that are just humans—that are holding so much power. And I feel like if I can get into that space, just like getting into the space of the logger or the tree cutter or whoever it's like, what's really going on here? I would say the rage that you're speaking to, or the anger or the frustration is... To me is it's a real respectful, acknowledging and witnessing of what's really happening.

Ross Reid  Just one more note on that, like—

Ayana Young  Sure.

Ross Reid  I think it's important to recognize that like, the issues and the rage, like it's not necessarily towards the individual people. It's towards the system and the way the system is built. I think for the most part, a lot of people in society, and especially those who are kind of in these positions of power, are more or less checked out. Like I don't think that they're conscious of their power or the way that they're holding it. I don't necessarily think they're doing it in a consciously selfish way. I think it's their complacency within the system that allows it to continue doing the things that it's doing is what's really frustrating, because it's like, ideally, you vote politicians into a system to create change, but then they run into the same hurdles that we are experiencing. Where it's like, you can't create change in a system that doesn't actually want to change. So it's not the people, it's like the system. Like how do you change the system through people? I don't know.

Ayana Young  To be continued, probably for forever and ever and ever, these questions. So gosh, thanks so much for sitting in the complexity with me and mulling it all over. I hope we can connect again in the future.

Ross Reid  Yeah. Likewise, thank you so much for having me on For The Wild is one of my absolute favorite podcasts. So I'm just absolutely honored to be able to speak with you here. Truly been a pleasure. 

Ayana Young  Thanks Ross.

Jackson Kroopf  Thank you for listening to For The Wild podcast. The music you heard today is from Green House, courtesy of Leaving Records. For The Wild is created by Ayana Young, Erica Ekrem, Julia Jackson, and Jackson Kroopf.