Ayana Young Hello and welcome to For The Wild Podcast. I'm Ayana Young. Today we are speaking with Betty Martin.

Betty Martin  If you want more trust in your relationships, especially your intimate ones and close ones, then the person you need to trust is yourself. You need to be able to trust your ability to say yes and no, and to ask for what you want--that's what you need to be able to trust. Well, guess what, you can only trust that to the degree that you have become trustworthy.

Ayana Young  Dr. Betty Martin has had her hands on people professionally for over 40 years, first as a Chiropractor and upon retiring from that practice, as a certified Surrogate Partner, Sacred Intimate, and Somatic Sex Educator. Her explorations in somatic-based therapy and practices informed her creation of the framework, The Wheel of Consent®. She wrote a book about it, called The Art of Receiving and Giving: The Wheel of Consent, and travels the world teaching other practitioners how to use the practices and the model to keep their clients safe, and their sessions effective and satisfying.

Betty, I am so excited to speak with you. I just want to give a shout out to Roxie Jane Hunt, one of my dearest, bestest sister friends who told me that we must speak and I couldn't agree more. And so, yeah, it's felt like the anticipation has been growing. And I'm really looking forward to having some quality time with you.

Betty Martin  Thanks. Thanks for having me.

Ayana Young  Yeah, I guess I would love to talk through the frameworks of consent that you have spent so much of your life working on, and maybe specifically how we might broaden our understanding and practice of consent within our culture. So that we could step more into feeling empowered and aware. 

Betty Martin  I think, probably, just giving an overview of the framework that I developed in that we're talking about. I didn't start out to learn about consent or teach about consent, it just wasn't particularly on my radar in in the mid 90s. I started taking...after divorce and I was in my mid 40s. At that point, I took some workshops on sexuality and did some exploring and did some more workshops. And at one of those workshops, we played a game called A Three Minute Game, which is two people taking turns asking each other these two questions. And one question is: What do you want to do to me for three minutes? Hence, the three minutes part. And the other question is: What do you want me to do to you for three minutes? And if you have a practice buddy or partner that you can play that with and you ask each other those two questions, you're going to notice that that creates four rounds. So I'm asking you, What do you want to do to me? And you say, Oh, may I play with your hair? Or, May I explore your feet? or whatever it is? And I'm going to say yes or no, or this, within these bounds, or whatever negotiation we need to make. And then we'll do that. And then by the time each person asks both questions, you've created four rounds, and then one of them, I'm doing what I want and another one, I'm doing what you want. 

And you discover pretty quickly that there's a quite a bit of difference between those two things. I'm either doing what you want, or I'm doing what I want. And likewise, in the other two, you're doing what you want, or you are doing what I want. So it becomes clear pretty quickly that who is doing is a different question than who it's for and this is where it gets really rich, because if I am doing to you what I want...basically, I'm feeling you up. And that's lovely and great. And everybody needs a chance to feel people up with their permission. And then the other one, I'm doing what you want. I may be giving you a massage, you're scratching your head, rubbing your feet or whatever. 

So when I'm doing to you what I want, it's for me. It's not about making you happy. I'm respecting your boundaries, of course, but it's not about making you happy. It's about making me happy. Like where do my hands want to go? What do I want to do? What sounds fun to me? And that is pretty much the opposite way that most people are taught is the right way to touch. 

When most people think of touch, they think of Oh, it's for the person who's being touched. And often it is, usually it is. But in this one quadrant of the, of the circle, it's for me—I'm doing what I want. So when I noticed that that was happening, I just drew it out in four quadrants with an X axis and a Y axis and a vertical line and a horizontal line. So that there's four quadrants. And in the doing half that you did for me, or for you, and the done-to half, it's also either for me and for you. And in the for-me half, I'm either doing what I want, or you're doing what I want. And in th it's-for-you half. It's either you're doing what you want, or I'm doing what you want. So you have these four quadrants of the circle of the wheel, and so I call it The Wheel of Consent. 

Which after I'd been teaching this for 10 or 15 years, I thought, you know, I should really look in the dictionary and see what consent…what consent really is. And I was kind of surprised, but as I thought about it, it made a lot of sense. Because consent in the dictionary means agreeing to do something that somebody else wants. So I consent to XYZ means I agree to go along with XYZ, which presumably you have requested or suggested. So consent essentially means it's okay with me, I don't mind you can do that thing. And that's an important dynamic sometimes, but it's certainly not the whole picture. It doesn't leave any room for Well, what do I want? 

Consent is a good thing, but it's a very low bar for human interaction. And again, it's better than nothing, but it's a very low bar, particularly for interactions of affection, or sex, or what other kinds of connection or play that two or more people may have. Sometimes we do things because it's okay and other time we do things because that sounds fabulous. That's what I really want. And so the wheel of consent, makes a distinction or notices the distinction is already there, but notices the distinction between those two dynamics. And that's the contribution that the wheel of consent brings to the consent conversation at large. It's not that consent to good idea. Like that's not news, you already knew that, but the fact that who is doing is a different question than who it's for. I think we're probably the only people talking about that, that I've ever heard anyway, that's the wheel of consent. Who is doing is a different question than who it's for. 

And so then, now you have these four quadrants, big deal, who cares? What happens is that as you play with them, by which I mean, you ask each other those two questions, and you explore and see what comes up...and you find that when you are in each role, each quadrant, it feels different than the other one. If I'm doing what you want, it feels very different from me doing what I want. It just feels different. It's a different experience in my body, and it's a different experience in your body as well. And likewise, when you're doing something to me that you want, it feels very different than when you're doing something to me that I want. 

And so each quadrant turns out, if you play within the wild, turns out that each of them will challenge you in a different way. Each of them has its own kind of joy and pleasure. And each of them has a different kind of lesson for you to learn about yourself and a different kind of dynamic between different people. So I think this is where it gets into the bigger questions about interacting in society at large and interacting with other people. This is where, in my mind, it gets really interesting. I mean it has a big effect on your...the expression of affection that you may have with partners and friends and loved ones and it makes a very big difference in any sexual interaction. But I don't really care so much about that. I mean, it's kind of interesting. But what's really more interesting to me is what it has to do, how it shows up in the world at large. That's where it gets really interesting.

Ayana Young  I just couldn't help but to imagine how magical it is when you're with somebody, and they're doing what you want them to do. And what you want them to do is what they want to do. 

Betty Martin  That's a bonus. That doesn't happen all that often. 

Ayana Young  No, I'm, I don't know if we're, we even should strive for that. 

Betty Martin  Yeah, that's a good question in the expression of affection and sexuality. And in sexual play, you kind of hope that both of you want to be there. And that's a really, enerally what most people want to go for. The Wheel of Consent is a practice in taking, receiving and giving a part so that you're doing only one of them or only the other. It's not meant to replace your life, or replace all of your interactions. But it's a practice, and within the practice, like any other practice, like meditation, or yoga or basketball, like just the practice. And within the practice, it's an opportunity to kind of narrow the parameters of what's possible, so that a whole different door opens than you might expect. And a whole different landscape becomes possible. 

For instance, in meditation, you sit or you walk, or whatever you do, and there's limited things that are options. And because of that, it lets you go deep into your own experience. And in the same way, this The Wheel of Consent, as a practice, you are limiting what you're doing to one quadrant or the other. Say, I have asked you how how you want to touch me, and you have said May I play with your hair? And I say, Sure. Now we're limited to: You're playing with my hair, and it's for you, it's not for me. And that means that your attention is going to go to your hands and what is my hair feel like in your hands, and what's it feel like to run your hands through my hair, and you stop thinking about what it feels like to me, and you focus on what it feels like to you. And this is my gift to you. Access to my hair is my gift to you and that's an honest to goodness gift. Access to our bodies, that's a real gift we might choose to give to somebody. And again, we're respecting our boundaries, but that's a gift. 

So now we have this kind of narrow interaction where you're exploring my hair for three minutes, or whatever we've agreed on. And of course, you can change your mind and you just renegotiate so it's not like you're stuck there. But that narrowing of the focus opens a different door than would have been possible. If we were just playing around and experimenting. It's a different door. And it turns out that it's often a very challenging one, especially when you're on the receiving end, which means when it's for you, because I mean how many people say, Oh, I'm not a good receiver. Well, just about everybody seems like. And so, yikes, now I get to learn what is it like to actually get my backdrop just the way I want it or my head scratched the way I want it or my feet rub just the way I want it and not worry about the other person. Oh my god that's going to be confronting, and it often is.

It tends to be tender hearted. Sometimes it's difficult to even know what we want because no one's ever asked us before or if they have we just haven't noticed how to notice what we want and how to express what we want and how to actually experience how wonderful it is and then it feels so wonderful that I start crying and have no idea why I'm crying because it feels wonderful and you know all kinds of responses are quite natural and normal. And that's because it's kind of boiling the interaction down to the simplest part—Will you do this thing that I want you to do for, you know, X number of minutes? And if you say yes, and I get this thing that I want, oh my gosh, it's amazing. And then the time is up, and then I say, Thank you, and you say, You're welcome. And it becomes your turn. So it's, it's a practice of taking turns, and taking, receiving and giving apart so that you can experience each of them without being diluted by the other one. 

When I'm receiving, and it's just for me, and what I can really take that into my heart, then it cracks my heart open, it just does. And then I get to learn and feel and have all the aha's that come with that. And when it's just for you, then it opens my heart in a different way, I'm giving you the thing that you want. And that also feeds my heart, but in a different way. 

So one thing that happens when you do take them apart, is that you find out what they are, because usually in personal interaction, we're trying to find the sweet spot. We're trying to someone's trying to give us a backrub, but we're trying to give them something at the same time, or we're, you know, trying to make sure that they have a good time at the same time that we're you know...we're trying to dilute it. Because, we're kind of afraid of that tenderheartedness and that vulnerability, which is inherent to receiving a gift from someone we care about. 

So it's a practice of taking them apart so that you do only one of them at a time and that is what...that is what blows your mind when you're in it. And again, it's doesn't replace your other playtime and your other times for affection, because you wouldn't want to be taking turns all the time, at least I wouldn't. I think most people don't. But as a practice, it deepens what becomes possible at other times. And I think that's one thing that's helpful to recognize, that it's a practice in taking, receiving and giving apart. And then you learn what's possible. And then you start to see, oh, this, this is affecting my life in other ways. And that's where you have your aha's, and you apply them to your life, how they apply. That's not up to me, I can talk about some themes that tend to show up, but it's how it shows up for you will be unique to you. And then you get to decide, Oh, it's hard for me to ask for what I want in my life. Now I have to reckon with that. Oh, I'm afraid to receive any kind of gift from anybody anywhere, anytime. That's going to affect your life. Or, Oh, I give way too much and go over...walk over my own boundaries. Oh, that's gonna affect your life as well. So you'll be seeing it in the practice. You'll be seeing these habits will become visible to you. And that can be hard. And then you'll see where you'll take it into your life. 

So an answer to your question about the sweet spot. If I am asking for a backrub and you also think well that sounds delightful. I'd love to give you a backrub then I get the backrub, it's great. If, however, you're running your hands down my back, and I don't know if it's what you want. I don't know if it's what I want and you don't know who's it for or what's happening. And then at some point...and we both think, Oh, well, I guess the other person wants this. Because it's kind of okay, I don't mind that's not really great. And then both of you are going along thinking it's for the other person, but nobody really wants it. I mean, how many times does that happen? This happened to me a-plenty. And whenever I'm in a room of people, everybody nods their heads and says Yep, that's happened. 

And so do your hands going this way down my back. If...What if I want to go to the left and you want it to go to the right now? Which way is it going to go? Well, it depends on what our agreement is. If we have agreement. So it's lovely to think about, Well, let's find the sweet spot where we both want it. And that's where most people kind of want to be most of the time, if they can find it. And it's a delightful place to be in a place of play and response. But where it gets lost is, who is this actually for? And who's actually enjoying it? Maybe nobody, maybe both?

Ayana Young  Yeah, those conversations can be difficult for all the reasons you mentioned. They're tender and scary. And I wish I would have written down exactly what you said, a response ago, you said something about, like, what you're really interested in?

Betty Martin  Um, well, I'm interested in for in my own journey of learning this stuff, and practicing and getting more clear on where am I?... If I'm afraid to ask for something? What am I going to do? Instead, I'm going to sneak it. I'm gonna steal it. I'm going to manipulate to get it. I'm going to pretend it's for you and be insulted when you asked me if it's something I want. And so I become interested in that in myself, like, Okay, where is it that I'm trying to sneak something by not actually admitting that this is what I want? Or that asking for what I want? Or where am I trying to give, give, give, give, give, give, in order to actually just get some appreciation? You know, and so, I've started to clean up those areas in my life where I'll notice, Oh, I'm trying to give this thing. This person doesn't actually want it and I'm disappointed they don't want it. That's really about me, it's something I wanted. So to be in integrity, I need to ask for that. Instead of pretending that it's for the other person...need to actually ask for it. 

Like now, I can be ridiculed. I can be someone can say, No. I can be laughed at, you know, I can be disappointed. And it doesn't go with my doesn't match my internal self image as the magnanimous giver of everything. So, you know, now I'm in trouble. So that's where it's been of interest to me in cleaning up those messes in my own life where I have failed to ask for what I want, or I have failed to say, No. No, I'm not willing to do that. Or I'm willing to do that only to this degree. And so that's where it's really become of more interest to me. Besides, it's fun. I mean, that's the kind of goes without saying. 

But then I think, in the larger world,  there's a way that we as a society, as a culture. We are...I'm a descendant of a European immigrant to the United States decades ago, I mean, generation ago. And my people, white people, came to this continent—I'm in North America—came to this continent, and stole the land, and wiped out many of the people who were living here. Well, that's pretty, that's a pretty serious thing to do. That wouldn't have happened if we knew how to ask for what we want in here and take a no for an answer. Like, we didn't take no for an answer. We just stole it anyway. And that's an example of, of what happens when we don't know how to respect a no. Or, you know, don't really ask with a genuine...it's now a genuine ask. It's a demand and it's a theft. 

So, you can take these basic dynamics and see how they apply in the world at large. Yeah, and it's just some real ugly stuff, of course. And you can see it on an individual level. There's the kind of stereotypical experience of the guy trying to pick up the gal? And she says No. And then he gets violent and gets angry. And then what is that about? Like he was making an invitation or request and then he got a no and then he couldn't handle the no. So there's a person who needs some practice in the vulnerability of asking for what you want and hearing a yes. And no and, and so it just plays out in so many places in our lives. And there's, I'm sure most of us have ways in which we give and give and give and do and do and do in trying to get affection or attention or appreciation or something. Or because we don't know how to say no, we're afraid that if I say no, they'll leave. 

Yeah, the dynamics that it becomes...when you when you're playing with The Wheel, and playing with it as a practice those dynamics show up, but in a very low stakes, friendly way. And so you asked me, will you rub my back? And I don't want to but I don't know how to say no. So I say yes. And then I do that for three minutes. And I go, I didn't really want to do that. And then I can see Oh, I do that in my relationships as well. Now here, I can actually see it up close. So it's an opportunity to see more of those dynamics in yourself in a low stakes situation. So that's the way I see it in the larger picture...is we also enact these same dynamics as a nation, extracting the microminerals in mines in South Africa for our cell phones, you know. Do we really have permission there? I don't know. You know, we have permission from somebody, but is it really being fair to the people who would say no, if they had an option to say no. You know, I don't know. But those are the ways that it plays out in the larger world.

Ayana Young  Oh, yeah. You're really hitting on spot there for me. Yeah. It's like, who are we asking consent from? What language are we using? And what I mean by that is, there's a mine up here in Alaska that I've been working against. And, you know, of course, there's the people here, the humans, but there's the salmon. Are they consenting to their water being poisoned? 

And I think, too, especially in extracting resources on Earth, it's not only that people, and more-than-human people are not given the opportunity to say yes or no, but I think there's also a real urgency on the timeline. Like, will...are you really willing to take the time to hear somebody think it through and say yes or no, and really understand all of the consequences in order to make a decision. You know, this overculture makes huge decisions very quickly, that have extremely long term impacts because there's an urgency to take, take, take, rather than slow down, because the overculture doesn't want to slow down.

Betty Martin  There's no money in slowing down. Exactly.

Ayana Young  Yeah. And consent takes time. Like, if you really want to hear from somebody it may not be on the timeline you want it for. There's even a consent on the timeline piece. 

Betty Martin  Yeah. Yeah, if we slow down, I think we would really make entirely different decisions. But it's a tall order for people. And anyways, I'm really glad you spoke about consent on kind of a more of a global perspective and non human perspective, and because there are so many layers to consent.

Ayana Young  But, you know, as I'm hearing you speak, I'm thinking back to The Wheel of Consent book, and you wrote, quote, "One thing that became clear was that my sexuality belonged to me. The realization was so sharp that it made me wonder what I had been thinking all those years before. As a woman of my generation, I had learned that my sexuality was always in response to someone else's, someone else's desire, someone else's idea of what was sexy, but now it belongs to me. I learned we are each the source of our own eroticism, and we can bring it out to play, if, when, how and with whom we choose."

Yeah, I think this is really poignant and especially now when there's so much in the media about our sexuality, and I think there's a lot of confusion and exploration and curiosity. And so, yeah, I would just love to hear how you came to take your sexuality as your own.

Betty Martin  Well, I was born in 1950, so I came of teen age in the 60s, which was a great time, I'll tell you what—was a great time. And I'm very thankful for to have been in that generation. So there was a lot of more freedom and exploring and stuff like that. And, you know, I was a hippie, and I had all the fun that hippies have. 

Even so, my sexuality was pretty predictable—heterosexual. Was pretty predictable, in terms of, you know, what, what I'm going to respond to, and that sort of stuff. And, in my mid 40s was when I took this first workshop, it was the Body Electric School. And this little epiphany that you're reading from there came from that workshop...was a workshop for women on sexuality and it was very, it was very sweet, it was intense, it was very physical. It was hands on. And that's what I came out of that workshop with. 

Most people think of sex as being about some connection with the other person and that's a major theme for many people, probably most people like sex is about the connection, and who's this other person and interacting with this other person. And that's great. And at this workshop, and subsequently, in The Wheel of Consent practice, which I described earlier. In this workshop, we were the participants. We were assisting each other in our experiences, but each of us was having our own experience, that's about...just, this is about me. This exploration of who I am as a sexual being is not about the other participant in the room. It's about me. This is what my body is capable of. This is what my body responds to. This is how my body likes to move and express itself. This is how my body feels in different states of pleasure and arousal. And that had nothing to do with anybody else there and that was a revelation. I think that was a big part of what enabled us the epiphany, because I found out that it's all here in my body. It's all here. It doesn't have to be in response to somebody else wants this thing from me. And therefore, I'm desirable, and therefore I'm worthy. And therefore I get turned on because I'm desirable, or some...that we were taught as young females in the 50s and 60s and I imagine people still are. This is about me, this what happens in my body. And that was, I think, a big factor. 

Plus being in a room full of women, and seeing women as erotic beings in their own right and seeing this wide range of beautiful ways that women expressed and experienced their eroticism was also really affirming because it normalized everything for me. At that workshop and other subsequent experiences, normalized erotism and sexual experiences for me. Instead of Oh, that's something that happens only in private. And you know, that's true for most people. And being in safe, structured situations where I got to be with and see and experience other people's sexuality that I wasn't lovers with, we were just in this experience together...was very affirming. Like, oh, this is what it looks like to be a woman who's turned on. Oh, this is what it looks like to be a woman who's expressive. Oh, this is what it looks like to be a woman who's feeling this, that or the other. Because you know, who has that experience as a young person, mostly nobody? And so we grow up with this idea that well, this is the right way to be sexy and it comes from movies and stuff like that, of course. 

There are many, many ways to be erotic and feel erotic and express your natural eroticism and play with other people and there's just an endless range of options there. But we think that Well, we're supposed to look like XYZ. And why would we know any different unless we've had some kind of healthy, useful exposure? So that's where that epiphany came from. It came from that workshop. And it was a very distinct moment I remember. It made me wonder, well, what I've been thinking all those previous 45 years? Oh, I was thinking that I always belonged to somebody else. But now I realize, Oh, it belongs to me, and that changed my life.

Ayana Young  Yeah, and you explained that you are a somatic sex educator and I'm wondering if you could explain the ways somatic sex differs from our current cultural conceptions of what sex is? 

Betty Martin  Well, the somatic in there refers to the method of working with people. So I can go to a psychotherapist and talk. And that's going to be useful for most things, up to a point. And another approach would be to have somatic experiences, which means 'in the body.' Soma means body. So for example, moving, moving arms and legs this way, or that way, or maybe singing or shouting, or dancing, or moving this way, or that way, or maybe involving touch, in some cases. Because when I can experience something in my body, it's a fundamental change to the way I experience myself. I can talk all day about how I wish I was able to relax when I got turned on. I could talk about it all day long. But having a helper and assistant, a therapist to guide you through that experience, and be with you and keep you safe and support you while you're having that experience in your body, that's a whole different thing. 

And, of course, working that way with people, you need to be trained. And it's also true that for many sex workers, and I did work as a sex worker for some years in there. For many people, going to a sex worker is often about this, being able to experience arousal in an interaction, and be held in it in a sense of acceptance and safety. Oh, my gosh, that is huge. It's just huge. And for many people, that's what having an experience with a sex worker is about because most sex workers are more accepting of the range of different human sexual experiences than the average person on the street because we've seen it all. It doesn't…your turn on—that doesn't scare me. Like you're turned on by X, Y, or Z and your partner thinks it's really weird. I don't think it's weird. Come on over, we'll play with it. You know. So that simple acceptance of your experience, and what it feels like to you can be huge. So that's what the somatic means in that somatic sex educator just means that I'm working with the body and experience instead of just talking. And there's room for both. There's room for all different kinds of approaches for different people's needs.

Ayana Young  Yeah, and I guess through all of this, I'm wondering about trust. You know on your website, you write, "Without you knowing how to choose and communicate, your body cannot relax into pleasure, no matter how hard you try. It's as simple and as challenging as that." And yes, I'm wondering how we can learn to let pleasure settle within the body, or how can we come to see trust not just as a quality but as a physically embodied feeling as well?

Betty Martin  That's a great question. Well, there's a, there's a misunderstanding about trust. And that is that you should trust somehow everybody. or something. It's like...I don't quite get that. No, you shouldn't trust everybody—you kidding? [Laughter] And if you want more trust in your relationships, especially your intimate ones and close ones, then the person you need to trust as yourself. And what I mean by that…As you need to be able to trust your ability to say yes and no and to ask for what you want. That's what you need to be able to trust. Well, guess what, you can only trust that to the degree that you have become trustworthy. And if I...and being trustworthy depends on learning skills. 

So if I have the skill to say no or stop or don't do that or do this, instead. If I have that skill, then I'm trustworthy to myself. I'm not going to let myself get walked over, because I know how to say no. Now I'm going to be trustworthy and then the trust will come automatically. I will naturally trust myself, because I'm trustworthy. And when I trust myself, then I can relax with you. Because if you think, Okay, I'm supposed to trust this other person. Trust them to what? Read your mind? Like, that's not, I won't recommend that it's not going to work very well. You need to trust that they will stop if you say, stop. But even then, what if they don't hear you? Or what if you're trying to say it, but can't quite get the words out? What you need to do is be able to trust yourself that you will stop when you mean stop, and that you will say no because everybody, of course, is not trustworthy and even people who are trustworthy, make mistakes. Of course, they do, we all do. 

So it's not that somebody's necessarily out to get you. It could be that they're just clumsy, or they didn't hear you, or they didn't know what to do. And so you need to be able to trust yourself, that you'll say no, or say stop or move out of the way or whatever you need to do. Then, now you're trustworthy and then you'll automatically trust yourself. And then you relax because you trust yourself. So it's kind of a it's kind of a backwards view of trust then most people think about it in terms of other people.

Ayana Young  Yeah, like trusting ourselves, trusting our bodies, trusting our desires beyond just sex, because I'm really seeing how this is...it's about sex, but it's about so much more. And there's a quote in The Wheel of Consent, quote, "The world we want to live in where people are connected to self, others and the earth." And so yeah, just understanding our desire and consent does lead us to a more connected world. 

And there's also this other quote that I wanted to read from The Wheel of Consent. "It's been a long, rich journey, one that I'm still on. As I learn to take responsibility for my desires and my limits, everything became easier, I became more honest about requesting. I learned to appreciate the gifts I had been given. I still have my comfort limits for what I can ask for without shame and I still have places I give away more than I want to, of course I do. And I still have places where I'm entitled and unaware of what others are giving up for me," end quote. So there was something about this that I thought about with limits, and how is desire and learning to find our limits applicable beyond sexuality and important within life as a whole?

Betty Martin  Well, we do have limits to what we're willing to do for other people. I may be willing to pick you up at the airport, I may not. I may be willing to clean up the barn. I may not. You know, we all have limits to what we're willing to do for each other. And many of us have been taught to disregard our own personal limits, and say yes no matter what because it wasn't safe to say no. You get in trouble if you say no—where you get berated or you get hit or you someone leaves, you know. So we all have times in which we say yes when we would really rather say no. And of course there are times when you just got to get up and do it anyway. You got to get middle of the night, change the diaper and feed the baby like that's just not an option. Even if you don't feel like it just just some things just have to be done. So there is that I'm not negating that, but in a more optional setting. And we have ways that we work overtime and don't ask for overtime pay are all kinds of different situations  and it's just part of human life....a way around that. And sometimes people will say, Oh, I should be more generous. 

And generosity is also kind of surprising in that what makes you generous is having a limit. Because if I know that my limit is: I can pick you up at the airport, if it's before 11pm. Then, then if it's before, 11pm, I'm totally happy to do it and I'm totally generous with it. Because I know what my limit is. If I don't know how to set that limit, I'm going to say yes to 12 o'clock or 1 o'clock, I'm going to be miserable and you're going to be miserable and I'm going to resent you and I'm going to resent me and, you know, so it's actually getting clear on what our limits are. What is it that I can give with a full heart? I may not enjoy going to the airport to pick you up, but for you, I'm willing to do it because you matter to me. So I can give you that gift with a full heart. It's much easier to do when I know what my limits are.

Ayana Young  Yeah, again, like we have limits, and so does the Earth. And if we're not in tune with our own limits, it's going to be pretty hard to start to have any type of understanding or empathy or limits beyond our own individual bodies and minds. And I guess like that kind of brings up this idea of the..there's an infant with us, you'll probably hear her waking up from her nap.

Betty Martin  I am loving those little sounds.

Ayana Young  Good. Yeah, she's with us. She is…she's also…she's learning about consent at a real early age through this conversation. 

But yeah, I think for me, it's bringing up the shadow side. And you wrote in The Wheel of Consent, "The circle represents consent, your agreement. Inside the circle, there is a gift given and a gift received. Outside the circle without consent, the same action becomes stealing, abusing, etc." And so yeah, I just feel like that, like understanding the shadow side to these actions. Yeah, I mean, I don't want to sound too simple on this, but why is it important to understand the shadow side and to consider the whole spectrum of giving and receiving? 

Betty Martin  Hmm, it seems to be useful to notice where your actions fit on this picture. Because they're.. so they're happening anyway, that...I didn't invent all those things. I just noticed that Oh, this is…this is what's happening. And so I think it can be helpful to put some context in it for yourself. And also to notice that if you're outside the wheel, if you're outside of the circle, and so you're stealing, you're manipulating or pressuring or coercing or other stuff it's because you didn't make an agreement. And if you want to avoid the shadow part, then learn how to make an agreement. And for the most part, that means learn how to ask for what you want. And that's hard. As we've talked about, already, that's hard. But that's where the that's where integrity lives. 

And I think it's also helpful to remember that we have all been all over those shadows. You've been there. I've been there. Everybody's been there. Like, it's nothing to be ashamed of, or beat yourself up about. What it is, is to be able to notice, Oh, that's why I did that, because I was afraid to ask for what I wanted. Or I was afraid to hear a no. Or I didn't respect the no that I heard. Why didn't I? I just didn't want to feel sad, or whatever it is, you know. Because I just wanted what I wanted then. So I think it can help to see them out there in the diagram. Just to give some perspective, because we all been there. And the way to get out of the shadows is to get inside the quadrants and the way to do that is to ask for what you want.

Ayana Young  Oh Betty, this has been such a mind expanding and heart opening conversation I've really enjoyed this time and as we come to a close I would just love to think through the spiritual element of Eros and sexuality. And he wrote, quote, "Eros became something of a spiritual path for me. What is the nature of this force within me? What does it mean to have a body capable of this much pleasure? And perhaps ironically, why is it that the more I attend a body experience, the more spiritual if feels, for that matter? What is spiritual anyway? Heck, what is sex anyway? We experimented with movement, play, touch, and massage, and we had much laughter and many tears. For this journey, I am also thankful." How can desire and the journey of learning how to deeply feel really fit into any and even lead our spiritual journey?

Betty Martin  It kind of depends on how you define spiritual, which I don't really know what it means anymore. What I do know is that it as I said there when I attended more and more completely to my physical sensation—just the sensation—that it felt more, the whole thing felt more spiritual to me. Meaning that it felt more connected to transcendent states, and then it had more depth of meaning. And now as I look at it, I think it's just different brain functions, frankly. It's just like, when we're in deep, physical, peaceful pleasure, different parts of our brains kind of fade out and go to sleep and other parts wake up and the part that wakes up when you do that is this part that creates a sense of oneness with all that is. This is part of our brain function and it's a wonderful part, thank goodness. 

And so I don't, I don't attach any mystical significance, like something is happening on some mystical plane. I think it's just like one of the amazing gifts of having these brains that we do that work the way they do. And so in thinking of what I think of as spiritual now, I think of it more as does this experience make you more compassionate? And does it make you have more integrity and take more responsibility for yourself? That's all I want to know. I don't want to know if you can achieve altered states. I don't give a flip. What I want to know is, does it make you more compassionate? Does it increase your integrity? By which I mean taking responsibility for yourself. That's the kind of spirituality that I'm interested in. I'm not interested in blissful states that make you feel that you're part of all that is. That's wonderful. It's great. But it doesn't answer anything, unless it makes you more compassionate and more responsible.

Evan Tenenbaum  Thanks for listening to For The Wild. The music you heard today was by Roehind and Vaughn Aed. For The Wild is created by Ayana Young, Erica Ekrem, Julia Jackson, Jackson Kroopf, José Alejandro Rivera, Bailey Bigger, and Evan Tenenbaum.